Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:13 am You are so against this; why do you follow this thread?

Last time I checked, Mr. Photobug, unlike some other sites out there, no "advocacy oath" need be taken to participate at this topic, and for that matter, this site.

Some here such as Messrs. Grossman and Olesen, along with myself, recognize that ConnectUS is "uh, not exactly" the Ten Commandments. It's simply a piece of propaganda that was, not only Amtrak but every other agency in town, put together to show the incoming Administration just how "worthy" they are for funding.

There is no certainty that NJ Transit will approve any one of the 3 bids for Roseville Tunnel.

photobug56 wrote:You are so against this; why do you follow this thread?

I'm for responsible advocacy. Spend the money where it is justified, and don't spend it on foolish publicity stunts.

I'm all for the NJT extension. The cost? Ouch.

Estimates of 500+ people each way NYC-AVP by Amtrak daily sound foolish. I see little to no basis for that. There are only two flights a day between NYC and AVP.

By comparison, the pre-COVID Illini/Saluki carries half that, is well established, and benefits from having captive audience with large public universities on the route that draw heavily from the Chicago suburbs. And there are three flights a day ORD-CMI (ot was six a day prior to COVID campus lockdowns).

The moment Biden passes away, I'd wager this route to Scranton will disappear from the wish list.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Mr. Olesen; presume this is the facility you address:

https://flyavp.com/

Now so far as waiting for Joe's consignment to six feet under, I think sooner than that - as in the day he leaves office, which I believe will be somehow prior to the expiration of his term (perhaps Secret Service will allow him a ride on an Aviella). Champ, Commander, and Major all need to have some good "rassling".

Oh, and ORD-CMI; did that in OZ DC-3's.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:10 am

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:13 am You are so against this; why do you follow this thread?

Last time I checked, Mr. Photobug, unlike some other sites out there, no "advocacy oath" need be taken to participate at this topic, and for that matter, this site.

Some here such as Messrs. Grossman and Olesen, along with myself, recognize that ConnectUS is "uh, not exactly" the Ten Commandments. It's simply a piece of propaganda that was, not only Amtrak but every other agency in town, put together to show the incoming Administration just how "worthy" they are for funding.

And then there are some of us who are not at all against it but realize that if 10% of ConnectUS comes to pass it will be a miracle, and those of us over 60 will never live long enough to see any of it, or at least be physically able to use any of it. That doesn't mean we have to ban ourselves and stifle our opinions on ConnectUS because we don't buy 100% into it or suspect very little of it will ever be done.

eolesen wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:05 pm

photobug56 wrote:You are so against this; why do you follow this thread?

I'm for responsible advocacy. Spend the money where it is justified, and don't spend it on foolish publicity stunts.

I'm all for the NJT extension. The cost? Ouch.

Estimates of 500+ people each way NYC-AVP by Amtrak daily sound foolish. I see little to no basis for that. There are only two flights a day between NYC and AVP.

By comparison, the pre-COVID Illini/Saluki carries half that, is well established, and benefits from having captive audience with large public universities on the route that draw heavily from the Chicago suburbs. And there are three flights a day ORD-CMI (ot was six a day prior to COVID campus lockdowns).

The moment Biden passes away, I'd wager this route to Scranton will disappear from the wish list.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Last I checked I could not find any airline connections AVP-NYC except via the midwest or south, several hours each way and a lot of money.

FYI, this is not just about Scranton to NYC commuters, but commuters in western Joisey and the Poconos and Stroudsburg, plus the opportunity to greatly improve tourism in NE PA. And I'm guessing you never had the pleasure to take Greyhound or Martz from Scranton to NYC in an overcrowded bus, or driven between the two during rush hour, or even, say, going to NYC on a Sunday afternoon. Easily 4 or more fun filled hours.

United operates two round trips between AVP and EWR, although it looks like that might not be operating until mid-March according to Kayak.com (which is even more damning about the lack of demand between that area and NYC).

I've never been to Scranton aside from watching "The Office" and have no intention of visiting anytime soon, much less suffer on a bus or train.

The fortune it would cost would make such a flight absurd. Plus getting to and from both airports, and the hassles with security. Probably wouldn't save any time.

As to Scranton, there are tourist destinations, including the huge Steamtown National Historic site (which includes a working roundhouse, museum, excursion trains, UP Big Boy 4012 and a lot more, Electric City across the parking lot, an anthracite coal mine / museum, the Houdini museum. Yankees minor league team reachable by trolley from Electric City. University of Scranton and Marywood College. Not too far away the best white pizza in the US. One of the downtown hotels used to be the HQ of the Lackawanna Railroad, one of the nicest RR stations in the US. Near the baseball stadium is winter skiing.

Along the way to Scranton shopping outlets and resorts in the Poconos. And East Stroudsburg U of P.

Etc. And in Scranton and vicinity a lot of firms opened factories and call centers and the like. Oh, and Scranton is more of a rail town now than it was 50 years ago.

So don't knock Scranton until you've had a good look and actually know what you are talking about.

@photobug56 Put the station within walking distance of steam town. Then that way I don’t need to put 500 miles on my old car to visit there lol.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:42 pm @photobug56 Put the station within walking distance of steam town. Then that way I don’t need to put 500 miles on my old car to visit there lol.

I don't think it will be quite that close!

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:48 pm The fortune it would cost would make such a flight absurd. Plus getting to and from both airports, and the hassles with security. Probably wouldn't save any time.

As to Scranton, there are tourist destinations, including the huge Steamtown National Historic site (which includes a working roundhouse, museum, excursion trains, UP Big Boy 4012 and a lot more, Electric City across the parking lot, an anthracite coal mine / museum, the Houdini museum. Yankees minor league team reachable by trolley from Electric City. University of Scranton and Marywood College. Not too far away the best white pizza in the US. One of the downtown hotels used to be the HQ of the Lackawanna Railroad, one of the nicest RR stations in the US. Near the baseball stadium is winter skiing.

Along the way to Scranton shopping outlets and resorts in the Poconos. And East Stroudsburg U of P.

Etc. And in Scranton and vicinity a lot of firms opened factories and call centers and the like. Oh, and Scranton is more of a rail town now than it was 50 years ago.

So don't knock Scranton until you've had a good look and actually know what you are talking about.

Also, so many former ROW that could get reused for transportation connections.
Maybe, with the hills, gondolas are valid mass transit.

These daredevil videos of an ATV ride Port Morris to Slateford have been previously posted, but not as a Playlist:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCqv ... zssB086dl9

For me, I'll just "do it" from Miss Phoebe's Obs, which "I did" March 1960.

Maybe he had some kind of "Sat Phone" (wouldn't want to place my bets there is cell coverage), would have he been found alive if he became distressed?

Also, clearly an act of trespass, making him subject to arrest.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:22 pm FYI, this is not just about Scranton to NYC commuters, but commuters in western Joisey and the Poconos and Stroudsburg, plus the opportunity to greatly improve tourism in NE PA.

I think the migration to Monroe County largely ended with the "liar loans" leading to the '08 housing bust. Much earlier in this epic, I linked to Times articles describing the travails of those who bought a house they could never afford and their long commutes in a bus to and from NYC.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:22 pm And I'm guessing you never had the pleasure to take Greyhound or Martz from Scranton to NYC in an overcrowded bus, or driven between the two during rush hour, or even, say, going to NYC on a Sunday afternoon. Easily 4 or more fun filled hours.

You have a point here, Mr. Bug, but really, relaying 21 additional miles of track (assuming the extension to Andover is built), rebuilding the D,L&W from its likely FRA Class 1 at present for the Short Line operator, to Class 4 (what Amtrak requires) makes this an absurd waste of whatever level of government's $$$ for what; "three a day". A little more justification than a sitting POTUS's one time home is needed.

Now so far as "the Drive", I have done road trips between Greenwich (where my Sister resides) and home. For the WB journey, I leave about 930A; X-George at 1030A, "Play George Washington" (a bit upstream) High Noon, and pass the 80-380 junction about 1230P. Only scary part is near the D,L&W bridge over 80, where the speed drops to 55 and the lanes to two. Does that mean anything to the 18 wheelers? Think we all know the answer to that!!!

eolesen wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:37 pm United operates two round trips between AVP and EWR

Reminds me of a "bust" joyride I attempted during July '65, after the EL "upgraded #2" with Miss Phoebe's Obs. in a "last ditch Hail Mary" to keep the train, and the railroad for that matter, alive. Plan was to fly LGA-BGM thence back to NY on Miss Phoebe. Well, Mohawk's (buried deep into AA today) Martin 404 "had the sniffles" and was badly delayed (this is also where I heard that Captain's announcement "If this plane wasn't safe, I wouldn't be flying it"), but I pressed on when I should have bailed (tickets quite refundable back then). But guess what, on approach to BGM, I was treated to a view of Miss Phoebe almost to Binghamton!!!!

Well, that fiasco ended with a Short Line (Coach USA nowadays) bus ride back to NY.

I think it's not really fair to look at the numbers this proposed service would be doing in a current scenario. The line has a lot of potential to open up opportunities that could dramatically increase its use (increasing tourism, increasing the amount of residents living in the area, etc) that we cannot account for until after it is completed. Investments rarely have their value revealed immediately after the money is spent on them, we'd have to wait upwards of a generation to see the effect it would have, and that's ok in my book.

All this being said, Amtrak is going to need some VERY fast trains to make this appealing. 80 MPH minimum, especially when people do more than that in their cars on I-80!!

Unfortunately true, and the only practicable line, the original DL&W Boonton Line, is irreparably severed -- and if it still existed it would skip Newark and have to do a whirligig at Secaucus to reach Penn Station. It seems "you can't get there from here."