• Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by TheOneKEA
 
You wouldn’t need a new substation, but you would need a new switching station and additional 13kV feeders from North Point and Chase Substations.

One of the reasons why the HHP-8s were so unreliable is because the switching station at Union Station used to only be fed from Landover Sub, and the breakers at said switching station kept getting tripped.
  by scratchyX1
 
Used to be fed from only Landover?
This has changed?
Last edited by nomis on Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Removed immediate quote
  by ApproachMedium
 
Yes the Acelas regularly tripped the breakers too so they built a new one by ivy city. The wedge yard is brand new as of a few years ago. At a million dollars a mile for wire and the marc service being mostly diesel it didnt pay to wire these two yards.
  by RRspatch
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:14 pm Used to be fed from only Landover?
This has changed?
Long story on how Washington Terminal and Ivy City were fed from Landover.

Back when the PRR electrified the line into Washington the transmission lines ran a roundabout route from Landover to Union Station. From Landover they ran along the freight bypass to the Virginia Avenue tunnel. There they entered into a conduit that ran along the tunnel wall and onto the Virginia Avenue substation on the southside of the tunnel. From this substation they ran in an underground tunnel to the substation located next to the REA building. About 10 or 15 years ago Amtrak built a high voltage transmission line from Landover to Ivy City yard along side the Magruder branch (Landover to CP Avenue). This was done for two reasons -

1) CSXT wanted to rebuild the Virginia Avenue tunnel for double stacks and wanted the high voltage lines out of the tunnel.

2) PEPCO wanted to close the Bennings power plant and with it the 25Hz generator that fed the south-end. Today the south-end is fed from a 60Hz to 25Hz solid state step down transformer at Jericho Park where PEPCO's high voltage lines crossover the tracks.

Today if you follow the line from Landover to Ivy City on Google maps you can see the new transmission towers on the westside of the tracks. A new substation was built at the very north-end of Ivy City yard to feed Ivy City and Union Station. I'm not sure if the old substation next to the old REA building is still used.

Interesting side note - the catenary sectionalizing switches at Ivy City were located at Landover Tower. I still remember that breaker (25Y) tripping at least once a week during my Landover days. Never could figure out why that breaker wasn't in K Tower. Damn that power board bell was LOUD.
  by RRspatch
 
TheOneKEA wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:09 pm You wouldn’t need a new substation, but you would need a new switching station and additional 13kV feeders from North Point and Chase Substations.

One of the reasons why the HHP-8s were so unreliable is because the switching station at Union Station used to only be fed from Landover Sub, and the breakers at said switching station kept getting tripped.
I remember reading someplace of plans to electrify the MARC yard at Martins as well as install a power switch and signals at the yard. Powering the relatively small yard could be done with a tap off of the catenary on "A" track and a sectionalizing switch. This would be controlled by the power director at Wilmington CETC on his SCADA screen. No need to get too fancy.

As to how Union Station is fed from Landover see my reply above. I left Amtrak before the HHP's showed up so I don't know how bad they were on power draw at Union Station. Anything starting off from the lower level probably sucks down a lot of amps.
  by TheOneKEA
 
RRspatch wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:15 am
scratchyX1 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:14 pm Used to be fed from only Landover?
This has changed?
Long story on how Washington Terminal and Ivy City were fed from Landover.

Back when the PRR electrified the line into Washington the transmission lines ran a roundabout route from Landover to Union Station. From Landover they ran along the freight bypass to the Virginia Avenue tunnel. There they entered into a conduit that ran along the tunnel wall and onto the Virginia Avenue substation on the southside of the tunnel. From this substation they ran in an underground tunnel to the substation located next to the REA building. About 10 or 15 years ago Amtrak built a high voltage transmission line from Landover to Ivy City yard along side the Magruder branch (Landover to CP Avenue). This was done for two reasons -

1) CSXT wanted to rebuild the Virginia Avenue tunnel for double stacks and wanted the high voltage lines out of the tunnel.

2) PEPCO wanted to close the Bennings power plant and with it the 25Hz generator that fed the south-end. Today the south-end is fed from a 60Hz to 25Hz solid state step down transformer at Jericho Park where PEPCO's high voltage lines crossover the tracks.

Today if you follow the line from Landover to Ivy City on Google maps you can see the new transmission towers on the westside of the tracks. A new substation was built at the very north-end of Ivy City yard to feed Ivy City and Union Station. I'm not sure if the old substation next to the old REA building is still used.
As far as I know, Union Switching (Sub 25A, according to Wikipedia) is still very much in use and contains all of the section switches, breakers and monitoring equipment for the entire Union Station complex.

Was the 138kV substation off Virginia Avenue in the District always called by that name? Every reference I’ve read elsewhere says that it was called Capitol Sub, and that it fed Union Switching via a set of 12kV insulated feeders through the First Street Tunnel and another switching station in Potomac Yard via the 12kV catenary.

Also, was PEPCO actually the operator of the Benning Road frequency converter? Wikipedia claims that BGE was the operator, and is the operator of the Jericho Park cycloconverters today, but we all know how accurate Wikipedia sometimes isn’t…

I’d love to know if any leftover artifacts of the electrification were found in the Virginia Avenue tunnel when CSX rebuilt it again for double track.
RRspatch wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:15 am Interesting side note - the catenary sectionalizing switches at Ivy City were located at Landover Tower. I still remember that breaker (25Y) tripping at least once a week during my Landover days. Never could figure out why that breaker wasn't in K Tower. Damn that power board bell was LOUD.
Completely random guess: Landover Tower was controlled and staffed solely by the PRR, while K Tower was controlled and staffed by a pool of employees supplied to/by the Washington Terminal Company, and the latter didn’t want to be responsible for one of its constitutent’s dedicated infrastructure.
RRspatch wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:04 am
TheOneKEA wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:09 pm You wouldn’t need a new substation, but you would need a new switching station and additional 13kV feeders from North Point and Chase Substations.

One of the reasons why the HHP-8s were so unreliable is because the switching station at Union Station used to only be fed from Landover Sub, and the breakers at said switching station kept getting tripped.
I remember reading someplace of plans to electrify the MARC yard at Martins as well as install a power switch and signals at the yard. Powering the relatively small yard could be done with a tap off of the catenary on "A" track and a sectionalizing switch. This would be controlled by the power director at Wilmington CETC on his SCADA screen. No need to get too fancy.
How many tracks does Martins have/regularly use? Could you electrify more than two tracks with one tap and one sectionalizing switch?
RRspatch wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:04 am As to how Union Station is fed from Landover see my reply above. I left Amtrak before the HHP's showed up so I don't know how bad they were on power draw at Union Station. Anything starting off from the lower level probably sucks down a lot of amps.
This AREMA conference paper (paywalled/blocked) describes in detail the HHP-8’s effects on the electrification and how badly they were affected prior to the completion of Ivy City Sub and the 138kV transmission line.
  by STrRedWolf
 
TheOneKEA wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:59 am How many tracks does Martins have/regularly use? Could you electrify more than two tracks with one tap and one sectionalizing switch?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/3 ... /-76.41653

I'd say 2.75 storage tracks (4, but two of them I'd question how much you could store) and 3 work tracks.

Heh, next time I'm feeling road-trippy I'll go up and see what I can photograph.
  by STrRedWolf
 
So I felt road-trippy and grab some photos... and I think there's a problem with electifying MSA's yard. I took these from MSA MARC station.
IMG_2707.JPG
This is looking Northbound (it's right side up if you open it). To the left is the NEC's tracks, and hidden by brush are the two MARC yard tracks. Apparently they were working on some of them because both had hotel power, so I assume they had a couple of diesel engines on 'em.

As you can see... there's not a lot of room to put catenary under that bridge. I can see going *to* the bridge, but not under it. A different shot.
IMG_2698.JPG
That said, despite the rain, not a bad day for train fanning.
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  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:01 pm So I felt road-trippy and grab some photos... and I think there's a problem with electifying MSA's yard. I took these from MSA MARC station.

IMG_2707.JPG

This is looking Northbound (it's right side up if you open it). To the left is the NEC's tracks, and hidden by brush are the two MARC yard tracks. Apparently they were working on some of them because both had hotel power, so I assume they had a couple of diesel engines on 'em.

As you can see... there's not a lot of room to put catenary under that bridge. I can see going *to* the bridge, but not under it. A different shot.

IMG_2698.JPG

That said, despite the rain, not a bad day for train fanning.
IIRC, locomotives are on south end, so that could be an issue.
Unless the yard tracks are ripped out, and lowered,
Or there is a gap that locomotives coast through, somehow.
They would still need new crossovers when southbound platforms are built, the nearest now,
Are chase.
  by TheOneKEA
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:21 am
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:01 pm So I felt road-trippy and grab some photos... and I think there's a problem with electifying MSA's yard. I took these from MSA MARC station.

IMG_2707.JPG

This is looking Northbound (it's right side up if you open it). To the left is the NEC's tracks, and hidden by brush are the two MARC yard tracks. Apparently they were working on some of them because both had hotel power, so I assume they had a couple of diesel engines on 'em.

As you can see... there's not a lot of room to put catenary under that bridge. I can see going *to* the bridge, but not under it. A different shot.

IMG_2698.JPG

That said, despite the rain, not a bad day for train fanning.
IIRC, locomotives are on south end, so that could be an issue.
Unless the yard tracks are ripped out, and lowered,
Or there is a gap that locomotives coast through, somehow.
They would still need new crossovers when southbound platforms are built, the nearest now,
Are chase.
The locomotives on the MARC trains are at the north end, so that they can be released easily at Union Station’s high level platforms, so new catenary could probably stop right at the bridge. I’ve never seen any regularly scheduled MARC reverse formations with an electric locomotive on the south end so I don’t believe it would be a serious problem.

The entire interlocking at Chase/Gunpow and at North Point would probably need to be replaced if/when Martins is upgraded with an additional platform.

I wonder if an HHP-8 would fit in any of the yard tracks today or if it is out of gauge in any meaningful way.
  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:21 am IIRC, locomotives are on south end, so that could be an issue.
Unless the yard tracks are ripped out, and lowered,
Or there is a gap that locomotives coast through, somehow.
They would still need new crossovers when southbound platforms are built, the nearest now,
Are chase.
Locomotives are on the north end because Union Station doesn't like diesel fumes coming into it. They'll probably continue that due to laziness.

That said, yes, a fly-over is needed and MSA will need reconstruction to high-level for the southbound platform.
  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone - On the subject of installing catenary over the two MARC yard tracks at Martin State Airport Station:

All that is needed over these two yard tracks is a glorified "trolley wire" with enough overhead clearance for
MARC bilevel cars and to not flash over to the bridge support beams above if they are steel. Ending the wire
before the bridge presents the problem of fully yarding a train if the electric motor is on the south end.
Full catenary application is not necessary over what is 15 mph at-best yard tracks.

The one picture RW posted does not adequately show the clearance between the bridge beams and the cars.
I would have climbed up on the adjacent embankment to try and estimate what the clearance actually is.

The best example(s) of a "trolley wire" of this type can be found over the tracks at Boston South Station.
What makes this even a better example is that the MBTA and MARC (Kawasaki) bilevel cars are the exact
same height above the rail. Another example of single wire under canopy is at NJT's Hoboken Terminal.

I realize that this has gotten away from the original subject of Amtrak's HHP "Armadillos" (my term) and
their use as cab control units. If this conversion makes them useful to Amtrak it should be worthwhile...

Happy New Year 2022 to all...MACTRAXX
  by Pensyfan19
 
Speaking of which, has anyone caught any HHP8 test runs since the first sighting of them on December 9th?
  by CSRR573
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:57 pm Speaking of which, has anyone caught any HHP8 test runs since the first sighting of them on December 9th?
Not a test run but they have updated the computer system we use
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