CNJ Southern Secondary Woodmansie - Winslow

What was the max amount of trains a day the Southern received throughout its 150 years or so lifetime? And what was the max amount of trains a day (or a week) the Southern saw in say, the last 20-30 years?

Up until the early 2000s it was one train a week from I believe some point onwards in the 80s. Probably closely following Woodmansie to Winslow being severed. A friend of mine does recall seeing one train pass another on the now demolished siding at Marl Rd in Farmingdale around 1995 but that might have been a one off for the timeframe. I will ask more about that when I see him tomorrow.

Can’t say when the peak was. Maybe in the Blue Comet days? At one point the line was seeing between 8 and 16 trains a day. I assume that was between 1950 and 1976. Was still fairly busy towards the end of the CNJ days.

The peak traffic was probably around 1930. There were no Interstates, very few US or state highways, so not much truck or bus traffic. Railways still ruled . The Southern at that time had at least:
Passenger:
Jersey City - Atlantic City (Blue Comet) 2 round trips / day
Jersey City - Atlantic City Local at least 2 round trips / day
jersey City - Barnegat 2 round trips / day
Specials Jersey City - Lakehurst as needed
Freight:
Jersey City - Bridgeton 1 round trip / day
Red Bank - Lakehurst 1 round trip / day
Red Bank - Barnegat 2-3 round trips / week
Not to mention MoW / work trains

So possibly somewhere around 16- 20 / day

EDIT: Don't forget until about 1930 the CNJ and it's forerunners had shops in Lakehurst and ran local freights out of there and pax to Jersey City.

The CNJ collapsing and Conrail cutting Woodmansie-Winslow as a redundant line (which is was when you have one freight company operating in NJ instead of three or four) seemed to have done more to this line's activity than interstates and local roads, but you could say that the interstates caused that collapse

I wonder how many trains a day the Southern would see if Woodmansie-Winslow was still around

Bit of a longshot, but maybe 4-5 trains a day from NS/CSX? Depends on what they’d reroute down here. CSX would divert their oil trains this way at least.

@JohnfromJersey:
Picture NJ without the Turnpike, GSP, AC Expressway, US-9, US-40, US-322, NJ-34, NJ-70, NJ-72 and no 18 wheelers. CNJ (a Reading affiliate) was in competition with PRR affiliates to move freight (& pax) between the NYC area and Southern NJ. After the US and State government built the highway systems and larger trucks created, the railway business tanked. When Conrail was formed to pick up the freight one of the first things they did was eliminate redundant routes as you stated. Fortunately NJDoT had the wisdom to retain possesion of may RoWs so they can be revived if needed.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:13 pm Bit of a longshot, but maybe 4-5 trains a day from NS/CSX? Depends on what they’d reroute down here. CSX would divert their oil trains this way at least.

Why would CSX do that? They would still have to deal with NJT at Raritan Draw. Why would they not use the West Trenton route? After all the oil is all out west.
I don't see any need for Woodmansie - Winslow at the present time. Years ago the CNJ had a great NYC area market for Oysters from Delaware Bay and fruits and fresh veggies from South Jersey. Both markets are gone. The glass industry also is gone, Not much traffic. Why re-build a line where nothing will run>

@R&DB For quite some time now rumors have been circulating that CSX wants to use the Southern Secondary as a reroute for the Trenton Subdivision due to a high amount of infrastructure issues in the Philadelphia area. At the very least the two remaining oil trains that go west of Newark (K611 and K614) would use this route, possibly along with a few of the direct trains that go south. (IO32 and IO31, both priority intermodal)

Only thing is though, as a reroute for the Trenton Subdivision the Southern is kinda out of the way, and not viable without Farmingdale to Freehold. I could see it happening but unless we see a few trains per day I’m not sure how CSX could justify doing this. Maybe give the local customers to either Conrail or Seashore Lines or C&D or whoever and bring a manifest train down for them, while retaining overhead trackage rights to get into Oak Island?

"For quite some time now rumors have been circulating that CSX wants to use the Southern Secondary as a reroute for the Trenton Subdivision due to a high amount of infrastructure issues in the Philadelphia area."

Stimulating discussion is always welcome, but what you just posted is otherworldly bizarre. Those are some intriguing sources.

"Only thing is though, as a reroute for the Trenton Subdivision the Southern is kinda out of the way, and not viable without Farmingdale to Freehold. I could see it happening but unless we see a few trains per day I’m not sure how CSX could justify doing this"

In your opinion, what financial investment would be required to rebuild Woodmansie-Winslow, and what time frame would be necessary? Keep in mind, the Gateway Project has been a decade in planning with funding just announced (current estimate is 12.4 billion dollars), and will take several years to complete. This would take us to (hypothetically) 2027/2028 to complete the tunnels, which would take great priority over an ex-CNJ freight route through the pine barrens, unused in over 40 years.

Finally, how would CSX access the Southern Secondary? River Line>Oak Island>Garden State Secondary>NJT River Draw>Amboy Secondary>Freehold Industrial>to (proposed) Southern Secondary to (proposed) Woodmansie - Winslow>Camden>Philly? The current route is River Line>Oak Island>Conrail Lehigh Line>Manville>Trenton Sub>Philly. Easily 2 days or more faster than the Southern Secondary routing that you propose.

Not hating, just wondering...thx.

Bizzare indeed. Not even the most outlandish thing I’ve heard either!

Anyways...

Not sure how much it would cost. The cheapest option would be to utilize the existing rail, and to restore the roadbed and replace all rotten ties. CSX could go further than that and rip everything up, starting over from scratch with brand new welded rail, but for them to go that far? I don’t know.

Time Frame? There’s no official one. From what I can tell it’s only something CSX has been thinking about potentially doing.

The only connection to the Southern at Winslow Junction is via a yard lead for the SRNJ, which comes off the Beesleys Point Secondary into the old CNJ yard. A new lead would need to be built as the current one would be inadequate for any sort of through freight. CSX trains would access the Southern here by going through Camden, coming off the Trenton Sub where the CSAO Delair Branch begins.

There’s an underlying question here though. Which is cheaper? Fix the infrastructure in Philly, or reopen the Southern and go that way? There’s no doubt the Trenton Sub is faster though.

R&DB wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:24 pm Why would CSX do that? They would still have to deal with NJT at Raritan Draw. Why would they not use the West Trenton route? After all the oil is all out west.
I don't see any need for Woodmansie - Winslow at the present time. Years ago the CNJ had a great NYC area market for Oysters from Delaware Bay and fruits and fresh veggies from South Jersey. Both markets are gone. The glass industry also is gone, Not much traffic. Why re-build a line where nothing will run>

Another thing we have to consider. Many markets and industries left due to changing markets or Trenton (and DC) chasing away business due to taxes and regulations. The sand and glass industries that formerly existed here are a great example of that

@RailsEast
https://www.njtpa.org/NJTPA/media/Docum ... 041921.pdf

Between slides 44 and 48 they talk about the need for some sort of SJ rail corridor and focus on the old Blue Comet route. Not really rumors nor speculation since it's (sort of) on the table for Conrail

The cost to redo Winslow-Woodmansie would be high but theoretically shouldn't be as difficult as the tunnels. The tunnels are technically establishing a new ROW next to an existing one, and tunneling is far more difficult than taking an existing ROW with a decent amount of tracks/ties/whatever remaining. In any other state besides NJ, it shouldn't be to expensive nor long to rehab 30 or so miles of now OOS/abandoned track. States not too far west like PA did it frequently during the fracking boom. However, I believe it's double the cost and double the time to build/rehab tracks per mile in NJ than there (or anywhere else), so that shoots the entire project down.

Might be easier to rehab Winslow-Woomansie vs. upgrading a busy line while it's still in use? I'm not an expert in nor work with those things, obviously.

In addition, the grant to reconnect FIT-SOUS would be even more justified if the intention was to reconnect Winslow-Woodmansie at some point, since there's not really many customers on either the Southern or FIT (especially when considering how long both are), much less potential ones, to receive heavier/286k cars or Plate F ones

It's nice to think about happening since given the rich history of the Southern, it sucks seeing it be seldom used and in pretty bad shape. Especially when you live right next to it.

by R&DB » Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:05 pm
The peak traffic was probably around 1930. There were no Interstates, very few US or state highways, so not much truck or bus traffic. Railways still ruled . The Southern at that time had at least:
Passenger:
Jersey City - Atlantic City (Blue Comet) 2 round trips / day
Jersey City - Atlantic City Local at least 2 round trips / day
jersey City - Barnegat 2 round trips / day
Specials Jersey City - Lakehurst as needed

From September 29, 1930 TT:
Only ONE JC-AC local depart JC at 3:32 AM arrive AC at 10:15 AM; no local AC - JC but a local Winslow JCT to JC local departing at 9:50 AM arriving at 1:45 PM
The TWO Blue Comet trains took 2 hours and 47/48 minutes from JC to AC
AC service ended on September 28, 1941
There were SIX weekday JC to Lakehurst trains
JC to Barnegat shows only ONE through train (already counted in the SIX JC - Lakehurst trains above) and THREE "motor coach" connections in Lakewood
Fast forward to Feb 29, 1944
THREE weekday JC to Lakehurst trains
ONE of which goes through the Barnegat
My next reference point is a August 1959 Official Guide which shows "fright service only" below Red Bank
The Trail of the Blue Comet shows up to FIVE "specials" from Lakewood to JC in 1930.

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:44 am

R&DB wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:24 pm Why would CSX do that? They would still have to deal with NJT at Raritan Draw. Why would they not use the West Trenton route? After all the oil is all out west.
I don't see any need for Woodmansie - Winslow at the present time. Years ago the CNJ had a great NYC area market for Oysters from Delaware Bay and fruits and fresh veggies from South Jersey. Both markets are gone. The glass industry also is gone, Not much traffic. Why re-build a line where nothing will run>

Another thing we have to consider. Many markets and industries left due to changing markets or Trenton (and DC) chasing away business due to taxes and regulations. The sand and glass industries that formerly existed here are a great example of that

@RailsEast
https://www.njtpa.org/NJTPA/media/Docum ... 041921.pdf

Between slides 44 and 48 they talk about the need for some sort of SJ rail corridor and focus on the old Blue Comet route. Not really rumors nor speculation since it's (sort of) on the table for Conrail

The cost to redo Winslow-Woodmansie would be high but theoretically shouldn't be as difficult as the tunnels. The tunnels are technically establishing a new ROW next to an existing one, and tunneling is far more difficult than taking an existing ROW with a decent amount of tracks/ties/whatever remaining. In any other state besides NJ, it shouldn't be to expensive nor long to rehab 30 or so miles of now OOS/abandoned track. States not too far west like PA did it frequently during the fracking boom. However, I believe it's double the cost and double the time to build/rehab tracks per mile in NJ than there (or anywhere else), so that shoots the entire project down.

Might be easier to rehab Winslow-Woomansie vs. upgrading a busy line while it's still in use? I'm not an expert in nor work with those things, obviously.

In addition, the grant to reconnect FIT-SOUS would be even more justified if the intention was to reconnect Winslow-Woodmansie at some point, since there's not really many customers on either the Southern or FIT (especially when considering how long both are), much less potential ones, to receive heavier/286k cars or Plate F ones

It's nice to think about happening since given the rich history of the Southern, it sucks seeing it be seldom used and in pretty bad shape. Especially when you live right next to it.

Stop beating a dead horse.

RailsEast wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:40 am "For quite some time now rumors have been circulating that CSX wants to use the Southern Secondary as a reroute for the Trenton Subdivision due to a high amount of infrastructure issues in the Philadelphia area."

Stimulating discussion is always welcome, but what you just posted is otherworldly bizarre. Those are some intriguing sources.

"Only thing is though, as a reroute for the Trenton Subdivision the Southern is kinda out of the way, and not viable without Farmingdale to Freehold. I could see it happening but unless we see a few trains per day I’m not sure how CSX could justify doing this"

In your opinion, what financial investment would be required to rebuild Woodmansie-Winslow, and what time frame would be necessary? Keep in mind, the Gateway Project has been a decade in planning with funding just announced (current estimate is 12.4 billion dollars), and will take several years to complete. This would take us to (hypothetically) 2027/2028 to complete the tunnels, which would take great priority over an ex-CNJ freight route through the pine barrens, unused in over 40 years.

Finally, how would CSX access the Southern Secondary? River Line>Oak Island>Garden State Secondary>NJT River Draw>Amboy Secondary>Freehold Industrial>to (proposed) Southern Secondary to (proposed) Woodmansie - Winslow>Camden>Philly? The current route is River Line>Oak Island>Conrail Lehigh Line>Manville>Trenton Sub>Philly. Easily 2 days or more faster than the Southern Secondary routing that you propose.

Not hating, just wondering...thx.

The Hight Restriction on the Delair branch is 17'10. That means no Double Stacks and only certain single stacks.

@CR7876 IO31 and 32 is single stack intermodal and TOFC loads. Would that fit?