Freight "through" NYP

containers from west coast ship on double stacks , its not cost effective to run them on a single level fleet just for long island . so were talking transferring , it would be more cost effective to put it on container road frame and get it to customer in hour past transferring than to transfer to single level car and again transfer it in LI to truck to get it to customer.

shipping from Newark simply would not be cost effective or smart time wise , from moment container gets released it would be at Customers door in one hour , with no way railroad able to match that time .

This is what I've been trying to say. By the time you hit it with a crane in Newark, you might as well put it on a truck. Waiting til night, running through NYP, unloading in the morning to a truck anyway in Long Island, then delivering... Not worth it. And most roads are reducing intermodal yards, not increasing them. CSX just took a big step back from a few. We bid a CSX yard a few years and it went nowhere.

Freight that can make it onto LIRR trackage, whether low height via Penn, barge, or from the North, if it's going out into Suffolk, it may well be worth doing (long term). A few businesses still have active sidings, but we also have a substantial rail terminal in Suffolk. It's very important out here to keep as many long distance trucks off the roads as possible, and freight coming via rail then local trucks is very important for traffic and pollution.

I should add that in Nassau, there are still areas where freight is possible, though sidings may be long gone, there are viable tracks all over the place. So again, getting the long distance freight off the bridges, city streets and the LIE is very helpful.

Super singles are not that great, Roadrailer with regular wheels would clear the 3rd rail, the tadem is narrower than a regular trailer.
You are DOA if that super single goes flat, you have a chance to get to a safe place to wait for a road service truck with dual wheels.
Long Island has ZERO truckstops maybe a few gas stations with a truck fuel island 0r a single diesel pump with a long hose shared with
diesel powered autos,the few rest areas on I-495 fill up fast and early, parking for OTR trucks is scarce!!

I have read that there was a clearance problem with RoadRailers and any third rail. Don't know if there was ever an attempt to try it anywhere.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 3:18 pm I have read that there was a clearance problem with RoadRailers and any third rail. Don't know if there was ever an attempt to try it anywhere.

So the roadrailers couldn't run on any third rail territory? And these were ordered for a railroad with numerous third rail mainlines, including Ronkonkoma... Did these roadrailers ever have any revenue service on the LIRR? If so, then where if they weren't allowed on the third rail???

I don't know that LIRR had roadrailers. They had something similar, but materially different. I seem to remember it was a flop and then a few years ago the long-stored cars and cranes were scrapped.

WhartonAndNorthern wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 1:14 am
Second of all the Selkirk Hurdle isn't that big of a deal. Why? Because so little freight moves North-South or from New Jersey to Long Island. The bulk of the traffic is East-West interchange which usually means through Chicago. Shipping CSX? It's going to Selkirk anyway. Shipping NS? OK the Pittsburgh Line to Harrisburg Line to Lehigh Line doesn't work, but NS via Buffalo and Mechanicsville (ex-NKP, ex-EL, ex-D&H) for a CSX handoff does.

Very much agreed. Freight through NYP or in/out of NYC is just not a thing anymore.

Let's reframe this issue: What major metro areas are seeing freight traffic come back, wanted back, etc??? If we pretend NYC has no costly rivers or harbors to bridge/tunnel, is there a reason to run heavy freight traffic through Manhattan or Long Island? Not really.

If we CSAO could obtain and rebuild the entire Maybrook route and Poughkeepsie Bridge for $1, CTC/40mph/double track all the way, would it fill with traffic? Honest question here, I don't know the answer, but I suspect it's no, because there has never been any kind of study in all the myriad studies done since 1970.

Consider Chicago. The railroads and local powers are trying as hard as possible to get freight out of the urban core as there really isn't much O&D freight in center city Chicago. CN bought EJE for a reason, and CREATE is supported by all for a reason. To get freight trains around rather than through the core. The greater Chicago area is a hub, but the actual O&D loads are minimal until one gets to the outer counties. Nobody is agitating to run freights through that easterly through-track at CUS, and SCAL traffic has tanked since CN bought EJ&E. South Shore Freight has dropped or embargoed their trackage rights to places like Proviso in favor of using CSX to Barr Yard or BRC to Clearing.

Consider Boston. CSX dropped Beacon Park yard in favor of Worcester, and PAS/PAR sends most traffic to Maine through Lowell, not downtown Boston. Another situation where this is so little O&D traffic, nobody wants the hassle of running a train through downtown.

Am I happy about this? Heck no. At one time there were good jobs for folks with skilled trades all over big cities. That has been lost, and big cities are worse off for it. Chicago and Brooklyn both once had factories everywhere. As you may recall, I'm in the cranes business, and at one time there was a crane factory in Brooklyn (now in northern Wisco), Philly (moved to Muskegon, and now Wadesboro and China), Milwaukee (now China), and Chicago (closed up).

If this bothers you, too, the best avenue is to look at making big cities more factory-friendly again. If there's traffic, there is trains.

Yeah, what prompted this was the article in Trains that surprised me with exactly how much freight there was on Long Island currently, about 40K cars a year (which appears, at least until Covid) had been rising.

So I definitely think there's a fair question of "how much traffic" makes it worth it. Is 40K the number because that's all LI can generate? Or is there demand, but the supply is limited? (The Cross Harbor Tunnel project would obviously only make sense with a higher demand than there is now).

Of course a "through NYC" option would also in theory aid freight into southern New England. But of course too, most of the industrial base there is long gone.

But finally I'll re-iterate, it only makes sense to consider a through-Penn option if the Feds and private RRs would kick in more than enough money to cover the additional associated costs.

(now if one wanted to get really creative and cross from the highly improbable to the basically impossible, consider freight up the Empire Connection

The 40k number is bigger than I figured on, although the NYA reports 30k on their website. Factor in any loads D&H/CP, CSX, and P&W bring on/off island that don't see NYA property and that seems to add up.

So you're right, the real question is "would there be any growth given the addition of a freight capability to new/existing tunnel?".

I have to figure the answer is still no. I base that on an assumption that a large proportion of the traffic to LI is inbound consumer goods and outbound trash. You've also got raw materials like lumber and rocks. Perhaps we should cross-post this to the LIRR forum for a bit to see if the folks over there have more thoughts.

But I don't know of a manufacturing sector or port that is clamoring for rail service that would double or triple car count if amply served.

Edit: if you go to the NYA website linked below and click the "customers" tab it shows all the customers and sheds a lot of light on this issue.

https://www.anacostia.com/railroads/nya

PC did run Roadrailers to Highbridge in the '80;s,using the old "Flexi-Van" yard site. not sure where that run started.
The Roiadrailers were 1st gen 48 ft type with the wheelset between the road tires.

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 12:10 pm
Very much agreed. Freight through NYP or in/out of NYC is just not a thing anymore.

Consider Boston. CSX dropped Beacon Park yard in favor of Worcester, and PAS/PAR sends most traffic to Maine through Lowell, not downtown Boston.

Well New York and Atlantic volumes are going up and probably will keep going up. New York/New Jersey numbers are also rising and there is a much being invested in new car floats, bridges and trackwork. So things are actually looking up for New York City freight albeit in baby steps.

CSX never wanted to leave Beacon Park. The City of Boston wanted that land for development and tried for years to get it. A deal to sell the yard and several ROWs for millions of dollars plus the State paying for double-stack clearance was eventually agreed to. Worcester was probably the only option but it's pretty restricted due to limited space. Land in Boston is just too valuable for a rail yard.

The PAR's mainline goes through Lowell, not Boston. There is very little freight in the Boston area and again the land is too valuable for a rail yard. Pan Am (the B&M) had many rail facilities in Somerville just across the river from Boston. There actually is a new two track yard (Yard 21) being constructed right now replacing Yard 8 lost to the Greenline Extension project. There is potential but not much of an effort to develop it.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 6:35 pm

The PAR's mainline goes through Lowell, not Boston. There is very little freight in the Boston area and again the land is too valuable for a rail yard. Pan Am (the B&M) had many rail facilities in Somerville just across the river from Boston. There actually is a new two track yard (Yard 21) being constructed right now replacing Yard 8 lost to the Greenline Extension project. There is potential but not much of an effort to develop it.

I agree with you, but at one time the handoff for freight between B&M, NH, etc.. was probably downtown. At one time carriers liked to bring freight trains downtown to a yard, sort the cars, send a transfer off to the other carriers, come back empty, and wait for a transfer to show up with new cars. Then a new manifest is made up that leaves town. Wasn't there a big freight yard adjacent to South Station once? And some kind of Atlantic Terminal railway that ran down streets? I'm certainly not a Boston expert but there was once vast freight sorting downtown that was dropped between PC and early Conrail years.

Please don't mistake my lack of desire to see a new freight corridor across NYC, Chicago, or Boston appear as lack of desire to make something happen. I just see those markets as way too far gone for a serious investment as a freight corridor since heavy industry is gone. It's really sad to me that heavy industry is gone from those places, it affects the ability to retain skilled employees in the area. If you wanted to open a good machine shop or motor rewind facility in a major city, it would be so hard! I know this because over the last 20 years I've seen said shops move out of downtown Chicago. At one time there were really such shops, because elevators need motor rewinds.

If a big if. If there was enough future demand for rail freight on Long Island and on up the MNRR then a tunnel could speed up service. The idea of using present tracks to Staten island and then tunneling to Brookland might be an option. Build a single tunnel bore to plate "H" specs. Add in escape branches to meet fire department requirements. Leave enough space to build a second bore if ever necessary, That should be designed so if there is a major disruption into NYP from NJ then Amtrak could use the Staten Island as a bypass. IMHO 2 Main Tracks bypassing Manhattan is a long term mitigation.

BTW that would only be 10 - 12 miles of new CAT. The freight should also be pulled by electric motors,