Paving Over Rt 23

SCB2525 wrote: (I guess not the Flexity at least though, as I believe Toronto is also mostly single-point).

I believe that TTC has also gone to the more traditional switches also, i.e.no single, and I also believe no "snap"; would like to get a hard confirmation on this.

Most LRV's are require two point.

The 67 foot limitation at shop is an issue, seems like all new facilities, and thus big expense. And the TTC Flexity seats only ?75? from some information I have seem. Too close to a clean burn 60' articulated bus, and some newer FTA grant metrics would favor the clean burn bus as being more environmentally cleaner (not just direct factors, but now also indirect, and most power uses coal).

jayo wrote:

Quinn wrote:

tdoran1951 wrote:Also, the track gauge and track geometry between “city” and “suburban” needs to be unified, and again should have been done in the 1980’s with a physical track (powered) interconnection to a common maintenance facility.

Are you talking about joining the 101/102 system to the city? I don't think that's feasible. The closest they come, I believe, is the Sharon Hill terminus and the Darby Loop, and they are just over a mile apart.

Personally, I considered extending them from 69th street to become an extension to route 10!

Overbrook Loop considered more than one, some SEPTA bla bla about not enough capacity at the loop, would make most sense with operator restroom. Even more sense if both lines using same equipment, thus an emergency switch out of equipment would be possible.

tdoran1951 wrote:Most LRV's are require two point.

Potential issues for LOW FLOOR LRVs, not most LRVs. Huge difference.

tdoran1951 wrote:I believe that TTC has also gone to the more traditional switches also, i.e.no single, and I also believe no "snap"; would like to get a hard confirmation on this.

Nope, still single point. The bid specifically called out that the LRV's will handle single points. If a client specs out a parameter to bid, no matter how challenging, and a builder can satisfy that requirement, why convert a whole system?

tdoran1951 wrote:Even more sense if both lines using same equipment, thus an emergency switch out of equipment would be possible.

"That would solve a lot of equipment problems" said nobody.

SCB2525 wrote:I'm curious as to what you refer when you say "poison pill".

SCB - re-read their previous posts - mostly rhetoric, nothing factual.

Technological challenges aside, can you picture a 100ft. Flexity Outlook gliding down say Lancaster Avenue, stopping every corner without serious traffic issues? I can't.

How difficult would it be to fix that transfer table problem at Woodland? We're talking about the context of a ~$1B LRV order, and ongoing operating ratios for the next 40+ years. If we're talking about anything less than $50M, and that bottleneck prevents us from using equipment that would be better for our needs, then replacing it is a no-brainer. And it's probably also the right choice at higher prices than that.

And what does Woodland and Lancaster Avenue have to do with the Route 23?

glennk419 wrote:And what does Woodland and Lancaster Avenue have to do with the Route 23?

Only working major overhaul shop left.

glennk419 wrote:And what does Woodland and Lancaster Avenue have to do with the Route 23?

Not that I think it's likely in any circumstances, but the best argument for restoring the 23 or any other trolley service is going to be the better operating ratios available from 80-100 foot long LRVs, versus 40-foot or even 60-foot buses. Like I said, even then, that's a stretch, but at least it's an argument that will hold more weight with a bean-counter than "I like trolleys".

More trolley tracks are being paved over "for the safety of bicyclists."

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/05/0 ... hia-septa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dan McQuade, Philadelphia Magazine wrote:Last year, the Bicycle Coalition of Greater Philadelphia’s Katie Monroe was injured when she fell at 11th and Reed streets. Her bicycle tire was caught in an unused track from the old 23 trolley. She fell off her bike, breaking her jaw. The accident led to a plan to cover the trolley tracks at several high-trafficked locations. “It had just gotten rocky at those particular locations,” SEPTA spokeswoman Jerri Williams said.

SEPTA removed trolley tracks at five locations in 2014. And, in the past 2 to 3 weeks, the Streets Department has completed paving over 13 more intersections, plus additional paving at two locations SEPTA said it worked at last year.

This is absurd. Another nail in the coffin for the Route 23 trolley.

There are many more nails in that coffin; although, all the sections that were covered are at locations that would have to be completely torn out and replaced before reinstitution.

R3 Passenger wrote:This is absurd. Another nail in the coffin for the Route 23 trolley.

the sarge wrote:There are many more nails in that coffin; although, all the sections that were covered are at locations that would have to be completely torn out and replaced before reinstitution.

R3 Passenger wrote:This is absurd. Another nail in the coffin for the Route 23 trolley.

that coffin was was nailed up, had a nice finish applied, some nice upholstery stitched in and dropped in the ground a long time ago. it kills me to say it, but it's true. i will be truly amazed if we ever see streetcars on that line again.

R3 Passenger wrote:More trolley tracks are being paved over "for the safety of bicyclists."

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/05/0 ... hia-septa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dan McQuade, Philadelphia Magazine wrote:Last year, the Bicycle Coalition of Greater Philadelphia’s Katie Monroe was injured when she fell at 11th and Reed streets. Her bicycle tire was caught in an unused track from the old 23 trolley. She fell off her bike, breaking her jaw. The accident led to a plan to cover the trolley tracks at several high-trafficked locations. “It had just gotten rocky at those particular locations,” SEPTA spokeswoman Jerri Williams said.

SEPTA removed trolley tracks at five locations in 2014. And, in the past 2 to 3 weeks, the Streets Department has completed paving over 13 more intersections, plus additional paving at two locations SEPTA said it worked at last year.

This is absurd. Another nail in the coffin for the Route 23 trolley.

As a bicycle commuter living car free, I'd be wholly against this if I had any say. Simply fill in the flangeway with bitumen or a mix of bitumen & shredded tires. I also call into question the riding experience of someone who should know the track is there and how to avoid it. Some other cyclists just don't "get it" and end up being more of an irritation than anything. I also really need to wonder what width of tires were on her bike, because fat tires don't really have an issue with trolley flangeway track. I get pissed enough reading about all the useless trails. Why can't people learn to ride on the road with all the other vehicles? Sure I've had some crashes, but you don't see me calling up the DOT complaining! Sorry for the rant, just drives me nuts...

Amen brother.

TrainPhotos wrote:Simply fill in the flangeway with bitumen or a mix of bitumen & shredded tires

That would not adhere to the rail and after a few days, there would be asphalt all over the road except in the flangeway.

trackwelder wrote:I also call into question the riding experience of someone who should know the track is there and how to avoid it

The person who wrecked that started this whole crap is actually a very experienced rider.

TrainPhotos wrote:Some other cyclists just don't "get it" and end up being more of an irritation than anything.

As Bike said, "Amen"

TrainPhotos wrote:I also really need to wonder what width of tires were on her bike, because fat tires don't really have an issue with trolley flangeway track

I've seen plenty wreck with 2.5" tires. As I mentioned before, if you don't respect the rail, you're gonna wreck. Turnouts and curves that have a guard (An edge about 1/4" taller then the running rail surface), have been know take out inexperienced motorcyclists as well. Back to the incident, the cyclist wrecked because she started her turn when the bike wheel was over a WET rail and the bike slipped out- nothing to do with the flange way.

TrainPhotos wrote:I get pissed enough reading about all the useless trails

Your prerogative, but thousands of people who use these trails, either for biking, walking, skating would strongly disagree

TrainPhotos wrote:Why can't people learn to ride on the road with all the other vehicles?

Fair enough and yes, some are just too timid.

TrainPhotos wrote:Sure I've had some crashes, but you don't see me calling up the DOT complaining!

If you wrecked because of a highway maintenance issue, you SHOULD CALL the agency responsible - it's kinda how stuff gets fixed.

So I just drove down 12th and the the entire street is paved from Bainbridge to at least Snyder, even though all the wire is still up. Didn't see 11th but I gather that will be paved too soon if it hasn't been already. They knew exactly what it was doing when it split the 23. The South end, at least, will certainly never see a trolley again.

Surprised the entitled bike folks aren't shouting about it as a victory.