How might a broken rail be discovered?

Datenail wrote:What is forgotten here is that the Railroad would rather the rail break, than kink. When it breaks, it cuts the signal/ASC circuit to their most restrictive aspect. The rail is installed under tension. Meaning, the track department when installing new rail, soaks a rope with kerosesne, lays it alongside the new rail and then sets the rope on fire to heat the rail and cause it to expand. If there is a newer more modern method of stretching rail, some please say so. Once expanded, the rail is joined to existing rail. When it is very cold and the rail contracts, the tension is greatly increased and it is prone to breakage. Broken rails are not a symbol of LIRR poor track maintenance or lack of maintenance, it is a symbol of proper track design with safety in mind (broken rail-droppped signals-trains slow down). Stretching the rail also decreases the incidence of kinks in the rail when the weather is very hot.

Slippy wrote:Nicely put, Date. That is a great railroad answer to the questions people have asked yet I don't think that will suffice LIRR42.

While I agree that broken rails are preferably to heat kinks, do you disagree that no broken rails at all--and the rail staying together in one piece--would be preferable to broken rails? Broken rails, while better than the alternative, are still serious issues (the NTSB found that a broken rail likely contributed to the Metro-North Bridgeport derailment that injured 72 passengers).

"You should be happy that you didn't get murdered" isn't the best thing to say to someone who just got robbed.

Datenail wrote:I think lirr42 is simply making statements to rile people on here. For the time being, until some material that surpasses steel that does not stretch, contract, rust or wear can be invented that is suitable for rail, this is what we have to work with. Maybe after we exhaust our iron ore deposits, we can use recylced plastic bottles for rail and then there will be complaints about something else. If employees worked for free, there will be complaints about employees not smiling enough. Lirr42, I don't like diesel smoke. But until we reach the level of star trek technology and the railroad is run by Captain Kirk, we don't have much choice with the materials we have to work with. While you are complaining about high fares due to antiquted union work rules, write a letter to the MTA and ask them why they are paying full salary and benefits to the former LIRR President who was fired from her job. Not even the best union contract on the LIRR provides for full compensation to a fired employee.

That is hardly what I'm doing. I want to see the number of instances where broken rails cause disruptions and put the saftey of the railroad's passengers (myself included) at risk decrease.

Your particular line of thinking is common, but dangerous: the thought that because we can't be perfect, we don't even have to bother trying. You don't have to be perfect--it should always be your ultimate goal--but, at very minimum, you have to try to come close. The LIRR has not demonstrated to its passengers that they are taking this issue seriously (that they are taking their saftey seriously).

LIRR42 wrote: While I agree that broken rails are preferably to heat kinks, do you disagree that no broken rails at all--and the rail staying together in one piece--would be preferable to broken rails? Broken rails, while better than the alternative, are still serious issues (the NTSB found that a broken rail likely contributed to the Metro-North Bridgeport derailment that injured 72 passengers).

"You should be happy that you didn't get murdered" isn't the best thing to say to someone who just got robbed.

I guess you aren't a metallurgist.

Edited to add:
I haven't seen ANYONE saying that things shouldn't be made better. And I will say it again - Do you REALLY think that the Rail Road ISN'T looking at ways to make the whole operation and infrastructure safer and more reliable!

This is kind of a rehash of previous posts but I asked about this on another board -- a private board made up of mostly people from the industry -- and two track engineers with a combined seventy years experience in the industry replied. Neither was especially surprised nor alarmed at what LIRR was experiencing. Here's what one of the gentleman told me:

Extreme cold puts the rail in pretty high tensile stress, because it is normally anchored at a high temperature to prevent track buckling in the summer. The temperature at which the rail is anchored, either by the sun in the summer months or by a rail heater in the cooler months is generally in the vicinity of 90 to 100 degrees. So when the temp plunges to something like 10 degrees and the rail cannot contract (remember, its anchored down), it goes into tension and in 115 pounds per yard rail, the stress can get into the range of 15,000 psi. You multiply that over the cross section of the rail and you get tensile forces like 150,000 pounds. In really cold climates the stress will go over 20,000 psi. Rail steel, as a material, is also less ductile in cold weather. So if there is any imperfection in the rail grain structure, stresses can rise at those points of concentration and the defect will grow under the cyclic loading of trains passing over it.

The other track engineer concurred and said, since broken rails almost always drop the signals they are preferable to sun kinks which not only DON'T usually drop the signal but often kink under load (when a train is passing).

Back onto the original topic ... if you can get a chance to ride on a speeder run (via a NARCOA excursion), do so ...

You gain a whole new appreciate for the "sound" of a railroad, when you're in an actual track inspection speeder.

It's quite easy to identify a joint that has issues, or a broken rail, just by the sound of your passage.

Nice post, Tom. In response to user drop off, large part can be attributed to increased oversight and the fact a considerable amount of rail enthusiasts have burnt their heroes - the railroad employees. Also people like LIRR 42 instigating anti-labor discussions. Datenail is a seasoned veteran in management who took the time to give him an intellectual response only to be ignored and 42 pushing his own ideology.

Slippy wrote:Nice post, Tom. In response to user drop off, large part can be attributed to increased oversight and the fact a considerable amount of rail enthusiasts have burnt their heroes - the railroad employees. Also people like LIRR 42 instigating anti-labor discussions. Datenail is a seasoned veteran in management who took the time to give him an intellectual response only to be ignored and 42 pushing his own ideology.

Taking the individual user out of the equation, this seems to be the issue. I've certainly (significantly) decreased my posting rate here due to the perceived absolute intolerance for anything potentially anti-labor.

If that's the atmosphere the admin/moderator would like to create, I have absolutely no problem with that so long as they say so. This is their forum and nobody is required to stay in it, after all....

this board just improved tremendously.

Amtrak7 - you're right. Make note that we have a decent amount of site moderation done by currently active or retired from the railroad ranks. I think we are lucky to have LC, a retired and respected LIRR engineer as our moderator. Would you allow a forum that harbors anti-labor discussion? That is welcomed in the comments on Newsday's site. Not acceptable on an enthusiast forum. It's no different if I go posting on a police or firefighter forum ridiculing their pay and benefits. The outcome will be the same. Not tolerated.

He might just re-register with a new name and email address

Anyway, if the rails are stamped with installation date, time and place of being manufactured, patterns may emerge
If this is not done, it should be

Commuter X

Commuter X wrote:He might just re-register with a new name and email address

Anyway, if the rails are stamped with installation date, time and place of being manufactured, patterns may emerge
If this is not done, it should be

Commuter X

What's installed where is usually catalogued in a database on modern commuter railroads that own their own tracks (or have by this point been subject to a comprehensive re-inventory to fill any holes in their data). If they enter an incident report into the system with the steel date + mfr. and the time of installation...they'll instantaneously turn up hits in the system that have similar parameters. And then you send a hi-rail out to examine samples of others from the same batch to find a pattern of flawed steel or installations that haven't yet broken but are at high risk for it. There is little doubt that if there's anything flaw-related at work here and not just random breakage from a historically awful winter...they already have a good idea where they have to pinpoint their inspections before the next break happens. Computer + an up-to-date inventory of all system track really takes the guesswork out of that kind of sleuthing for the next needle (I'd say stick, but it's CWR after all ) in a haystack.

Datenail wrote:What is forgotten here is that the Railroad would rather the rail break, than kink. When it breaks, it cuts the signal/ASC circuit to their most restrictive aspect. The rail is installed under tension. Meaning, the track department when installing new rail, soaks a rope with kerosesne, lays it alongside the new rail and then sets the rope on fire to heat the rail and cause it to expand. If there is a newer more modern method of stretching rail, some please say so. Once expanded, the rail is joined to existing rail. When it is very cold and the rail contracts, the tension is greatly increased and it is prone to breakage. Broken rails are not a symbol of LIRR poor track maintenance or lack of maintenance, it is a symbol of proper track design with safety in mind (broken rail-droppped signals-trains slow down). Stretching the rail also decreases the incidence of kinks in the rail when the weather is very hot.

I have seen the "rope method" done both on the northeast corridor and on LIRR. In the instance of the northeast corridor, the break was near a station, but i can't remember right now which one. Was quite a sight seeing the track on fire like that! I am not sure if it was welded back together at the time or temporary fix. Alerts called it a "track condition". On the LIRR i was much younger and had no idea what it was all about or what spot i was near.

Slippy wrote:Amtrak7 - you're right. Make note that we have a decent amount of site moderation done by currently active or retired from the railroad ranks. I think we are lucky to have LC, a retired and respected LIRR engineer as our moderator. Would you allow a forum that harbors anti-labor discussion? That is welcomed in the comments on Newsday's site. Not acceptable on an enthusiast forum. It's no different if I go posting on a police or firefighter forum ridiculing their pay and benefits. The outcome will be the same. Not tolerated.

Then make it a policy / pinned post / something similar. Especially if discussion (not just baseless and factless attacks) isn't tolerated.

If your defending that malicious fools racist and hateful posts, there's room for you where he went. no one here had any use for his nonsense. I see hes all over Newsday.com this morning an they havent banned him yet

Gosh, Amtrak7 -- What ever happened to "lurking" at a chat-room or posting board to get a feel for it...