Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

There is a groundswell of support for keeping some of the Amtrak trains in GCT. There have been discussions. Metro-North is adamantly against but in the end, if they are told to make it happen, they will have to make it happen....just as they are now.

adamj023 wrote:Penn Station’s projects are already in progress where it will get better. This summer is probably the worst of the disruptions planned for Penn Station and after that it will be improved even further over time.

Up until recently, Amtrak was a total disaster at Penn Station. Track 19 will be ready soon and the Harold Amtrak bypass I presume isn’t ready yet but will help as well when it is completed for Northeastern Corridor trains.

Penn Station is still a disaster. It will ALWAYS be a disaster as long as the infrastructure is overload and pounded into submission by the relentless onslaught of trains. The tunnels are still in trouble, the electrical system is still old and the sands of time have already started running against the work that was previously done.

Diversification of resources should be the goal.

What I meant is that Penn Station has seen full track upgrades and Harold interlocking signals are now computerized as well as the completion of the West End Concourse project. This included electrical and signal work. There is more to do, but previously trains were sliding off the rails and derailing and there were a lot more outages as well as restricted speeds in Penn Station. Also all Harold interlocking tracks can now be routed to any of the tunnels.

A lot of work has been done to stablize the system. It is indeed much better. Perfect? No, it always will need more work even after more upgrades are finished. But the critical projects seem to have finally gotten done and this summer is likely the worst disruption we will see for a long time.

For the last few years until just recently, Penn Station was a worse mess. Now it is manageable and much better overall. They sre wrapping up the most important projects including Track 19 and Empire Corridor and the like.

adamj023 wrote:What I meant is that Penn Station has seen full track upgrades and Harold interlocking signals are now computerized as well as the completion of the West End Concourse project. This included electrical and signal work.

Harold's signals were computerized prior to East Side Access. They were changed over years ago, when it was hooked up to centralized control.

adamj023 wrote: There is more to do, but previously trains were sliding off the rails and derailing and there were a lot more outages as well as restricted speeds in Penn Station.

The speed restrictions appeared after the attention was focused on the multiple derailments in a short period of times. There are still a ton of outages and as a matter of fact, there have been derailments (yes,plural)since phase 1 was completed. ....but since there hasn't been a news blitz, you probably didn't know about them.

adamj023 wrote:Also all Harold interlocking tracks can now be routed to any of the tunnels.

The only two tracks that couldn't reach the entire plant were the South Engine Lay up and you couldn't go Line 4 to main Line 4 or back. The need to make that move is quite rare. Additionally, we've lost South Engine Lay up entirely, part of the Freight track, the Q connecting tracks. However, none of that is part Penn Station Renewal project. That is tied into the east side access project.

I guess I'm not seeing this "much better."

Harold handles LIRR and Amtrak trains and the MTA just completed the computerization and the move to automated signals.

They definitely just completed this project as testing on the signals occured over a long period as well as construction. The previous project consolidated the signals into one facility but signals were still on non microprocessor based original signalling systems. Now it is 7 sets of distributed signal huts which provide for even greater redundency as well. I don’t know when the Amtrak bypass will be ready but that will help even further. The signaling facility after Harold was switched to one facility was definitely involved with manual switches. I saw pics of the equipment inside which had manual pull handles and manual signal boards. This was a big change and allows for more trains and trains to be run closer together. Also eventually PTC installations will improve the system even more. It does help out ESA as well but I am not referring to that for purposes of this discussion. East river tunnels are an important part of getting trains into and out of Penn Station.

https://www.tunneltalk.com/images/East- ... s-Full.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; As it says, it was/is a joint Amtrak/LIRR project

There aren’t any newsworthy incidents or incidents one doesn’t know about. In fact, all incidents are public information. With so many Penn Station trains and customers and internet access everywhere, every issue gets discussed by someone including mass media and independent sources of information. Amtrak has definitely improved by leaps and bounds at Penn Station. Glad track 19 will be back in service soon along with related turnouts and the like.

The new Moynihan station and a New Avelia Liberty club I presume as Acela will be replaced will really help take Amtrak to the next level.

Probably no revenue trains derailing. However ferry and positioning trips would be another possibility ?

Any type of presence at GCT,will at times require Equipment moves to/from Sunnyside yard to cycle out bad ordered cars and power.
Shortest move would be the Empire Connector-DV-GCT,other route would be Sunnyside -Shell-Woodlawn-GCT
Forget about Amtrak sneaking over the Freight connector to CP 12 from Oak Point,CSX will say NO WAY!

ThirdRail7 wrote:There is a groundswell of support for keeping some of the Amtrak trains in GCT. There have been discussions. Metro-North is adamantly against but in the end, if they are told to make it happen, they will have to make it happen....just as they are now.


Penn Station is still a disaster. It will ALWAYS be a disaster as long as the infrastructure is overload and pounded into submission by the relentless onslaught of trains. The tunnels are still in trouble, the electrical system is still old and the sands of time have already started running against the work that was previously done.

Diversification of resources should be the goal.

Can you provide citations for this "groundswell" of support - by passengers, mind you, the people the railroad is supposed to serve? There has sure been plenty of grumbling.

Can you provide evidence that the repairs work of the past year is being degraded by fictional "sands of time"? The claim that it is pointless to make repairs and improvements in order to bring the station up to modern standards is over-dramatic and blatantly fabricated.

ThirdRail7 wrote:
The only two tracks that couldn't reach the entire plant were the South Engine Lay up and you couldn't go Line 4 to main Line 4 or back. The need to make that move is quite rare. Additionally, we've lost South Engine Lay up entirely, part of the Freight track, the Q connecting tracks. However, none of that is part Penn Station Renewal project. That is tied into the east side access project.

I guess I'm not seeing this "much better."

It's not about the capability to move from any track to any track. It's about the ability to do so without fouling anywhere. The goal of the project, as you should well know, is to allow LIRR Main Line trains and Hell's Gate trains into their preferred tunnels without crossing paths, increasing throughput due to decreased conflicts over shared points. This project WILL prevent many delays of LIRR and Amtrak trains. Your pessimism will not.

andrewjw wrote:
Can you provide citations for this "groundswell" of support - by passengers, mind you, the people the railroad is supposed to serve? There has sure been plenty of grumbling.

Actually, no. This trickled down to me when when certain departments were asked to prepare an impact report asking for what would happen if specific (not all) trains were moved to GCT on a permanent basis. Apparently, passengers like this service. I don't know how much constitutes a "groundswell" since that was the quote that was handed down. It could be 100's. It could be 1000's. it could be one, lone politician that likes it. I do know that meetings were held on the subject. Personally, I prefer everything remaining in Penn....although, I admit...having less trains creates breathing room.

andrewjw wrote: Can you provide evidence that the repairs work of the past year is being degraded by fictional "sands of time"? The claim that it is pointless to make repairs and improvements in order to bring the station up to modern standards is over-dramatic and blatantly fabricated.

Ummm...who made the claims it is pointless to make repairs and improvements in order to bring the station up to modern standards? Additionally, you can improve and modernize but it doesn't change the fact that you are still utilizing the infrastructure you improved at a relentless pace. A pace that MAY get worse as the years progress. As things are used, they tend to wear down. Using a switch 3oo times a day is going to produce more wear and tear than something that is used 40 times a day...which will hasten the need for replacement in the future.

andrewjw wrote: It's not about the capability to move from any track to any track. It's about the ability to do so without fouling anywhere. The goal of the project, as you should well know, is to allow LIRR Main Line trains and Hell's Gate trains into their preferred tunnels without crossing paths, increasing throughput due to decreased conflicts over shared points. This project WILL prevent many delays of LIRR and Amtrak trains. Your pessimism will not.

Aaaaand none of that project has to do with "the emergency work in NYP." That's East Side Access. But, since you want to get into it,currently the ability to get from Line 4 to Main Line will STILL cause the Amtrak trains and the LIRR to cross paths....massively. Indeed, despite the press release, you can't currently make that move within Harold. It starts at Wood interlocking, where you can go from ML4 to ML2. Once that is accomplished, you may now proceed from ML2 to Line 4 (and everything else in between.) As you do that, you will CERTAINLY block access....to almost everything since you're moving across the entire plant and there aren't any flyovers in service.


That's not pessimism....that is realism.

ThirdRail7 wrote:Apparently, passengers like this service. I don't know how much constitutes a "groundswell" since that was the quote that was handed down. It could be 100's. It could be 1000's. it could be one, lone politician that likes it. I do know that meetings were held on the subject. Personally, I prefer everything remaining in Penn....although, I admit...having less trains creates breathing room.

It is not difficult at all for me to imagine passengers from upstate NY appreciating the convenience of the "midtown" arrival at NYG.

Things have changed quite a bit since Amtrak left in 1991. Lots of new developments and major increases in ridership across the board for everyone.

ThirdRail7 wrote:Penn Station is still a disaster. It will ALWAYS be a disaster as long as the infrastructure is overload and pounded into submission by the relentless onslaught of trains. The tunnels are still in trouble, the electrical system is still old and the sands of time have already started running against the work that was previously done. Diversification of resources should be the goal.

To relieve the burden load at NYP, terminate a few Keystones or Regionals at HOB. With push-pull operation, the Keystones would not need to be wyed or looped.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote:Penn Station is still a disaster. It will ALWAYS be a disaster as long as the infrastructure is overload and pounded into submission by the relentless onslaught of trains. The tunnels are still in trouble, the electrical system is still old and the sands of time have already started running against the work that was previously done. Diversification of resources should be the goal.

To relieve the burden load at NYP, terminate a few Keystones or Regionals at HOB. With push-pull operation, the Keystones would not need to be wyed or looped.

They would just terminate them in Newark, since all the customers will just be heading under the river anyhow and the Waterfront connection (to HOB) is EB only (WB trains have to cross over main tracks).

True -- by the time the train got to Hoboken, passengers who took PATH from Newark could be at 33rd St. or WTC, the same places they would reach from Hoboken.

Why terminate any Amtrak trains ?. It would be much better to terminate some of the extra NJT trains that were added when midtown direct began without any significant increase in Amtrak trains ? In fact believe Amtrak trains may have decreased when the NYP <> PHL clockers were discontinued ?

east point wrote:Why terminate any Amtrak trains ?. It would be much better to terminate some of the extra NJT trains that were added when midtown direct began without any significant increase in Amtrak trains ? In fact believe Amtrak trains may have decreased when the NYP <> PHL clockers were discontinued ?

You could also eliminate some of the Raritan Valley trains or send them back to Hoboken. You could also originate some of the express trains at Hoboken. I would also agree that killing some of the Keystones at Philadelphia and/or Newark should be considered, and if some of the ALB end up in GCT, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world.

The "summer of hell" proved that diversifying your resources and working together with other modes of transportation CAN work. This shouldn't be a competition. All modes should work together to move the people. Hoboken should work to expand operations. This is particularly true since the 7 train reaches to 11th Ave. There is absolutely no reason for a ferry slip not to exist near that station. Multiple ferries to multiple locations should deploy from that location and reach places like Hoboken, Belford, South Amboy, Tarrytown and many places along the rivers. They can feed the subway at its first stop.

It is cheaper than a tunnel!

As far as running Amtrak trains into Hoboken is concerned I seem to remember reading somewhere that NJT was going to build 6 new tracks at the station by filling in a canal or something like that. As far as getting to Hoboken is concerned only one side of the Waterfront Connection (eastbound side) was built. The westbound side, a flyover that goes over PATH, wasn't built. Since there's only one connecting track for trains off of the NEC to NJT I'm sure NJT wouldn't want the added traffic on what is probably already a congested stretch of track. I know some of the Raritan trains go that way, do any other trains come off the corridor using that connecting track?