Overnight Coach Configuration Ideas

The Wall Street Journal had a "The Middle Seat" column this past December which stated these modules that the "Big Three" are ostensibly installing in their wide bodied aircraft cost $100K a pop.

Fair Use:

Business-class seats have thousands of parts and can each cost $100,000 or more. Think of them as high-end sports cars. They get scrutinized by an airlines best customers, who pay as much as $10,000 or more for a trip and often find themselves regularly eating, sleeping and living in the seats. Once installed, its difficult to tweak designs. One small flaw can lead to bad reviews and lost revenue

None of the three seem to be in a rush to refit their entire fleet. A United Attendant I know said to me "oh well, just more of same for the past thirty five years. Big splash rolling something out, but that is far as it goes".

Now to refit a small number of cars for 66-67, Regional, would be a real burden - both cost and maintenance. Know so first hand; these seats can be "tempermental".

It's certainly a neat idea, as I'm sure those coach seats can't be all that comfortable to sleep in at night, and I'm glad that BostonTrainGuy took the time and effort to come up with a preliminary design of sorts. It could be an interesting concept, perhaps introducing a category between "Sleeper" and "Coach" along the lines of Delta's "EconomyPlus".

The designs of the seats would have to be such that not only are they comfortable and appealing to the customer, but also cost-effective, as Amtrak obviously doesn't have money to throw around like the big air carriers do.

I would be very interested to know how one would "freshen up" in such a car configuration. I see there's a shower available, but one shower for 30-some people is a little insane. Granted, you probably wouldn't come across a situation where everyone would want to shower very often, but it would likely be just enough where logistical problems would start to pop up.

An intriguing proposition.

WesternNation wrote:It's certainly a neat idea, as I'm sure those coach seats can't be all that comfortable to sleep in at night, and I'm glad that BostonTrainGuy took the time and effort to come up with a preliminary design of sorts. It could be an interesting concept, perhaps introducing a category between "Sleeper" and "Coach" along the lines of Delta's "EconomyPlus".

The designs of the seats would have to be such that not only are they comfortable and appealing to the customer, but also cost-effective, as Amtrak obviously doesn't have money to throw around like the big air carriers do.

I would be very interested to know how one would "freshen up" in such a car configuration. I see there's a shower available, but one shower for 30-some people is a little insane. Granted, you probably wouldn't come across a situation where everyone would want to shower very often, but it would likely be just enough where logistical problems would start to pop up.

An intriguing proposition.

I suspect you'd have to make the bathrooms shower/toilet combos, with one full restroom. So you'd have 2 showers and 3 toilets.

bretton88 wrote:

WesternNation wrote:It's certainly a neat idea, as I'm sure those coach seats can't be all that comfortable to sleep in at night, and I'm glad that BostonTrainGuy took the time and effort to come up with a preliminary design of sorts. It could be an interesting concept, perhaps introducing a category between "Sleeper" and "Coach" along the lines of Delta's "EconomyPlus".

The designs of the seats would have to be such that not only are they comfortable and appealing to the customer, but also cost-effective, as Amtrak obviously doesn't have money to throw around like the big air carriers do.

I would be very interested to know how one would "freshen up" in such a car configuration. I see there's a shower available, but one shower for 30-some people is a little insane. Granted, you probably wouldn't come across a situation where everyone would want to shower very often, but it would likely be just enough where logistical problems would start to pop up.

An intriguing proposition.

I suspect you'd have to make the bathrooms shower/toilet combos, with one full restroom. So you'd have 2 showers and 3 toilets.

Just for the hell of it, I checked how Delta handles this. The 767-400ER plane has two toilets between 40 "Delta One Suites" and 28 "Comfort Class" seats on their overnight flights between New York and London. Further back there are four toilets for 178 coach passengers. There is no shower.

I need to dig back into the V-II thread. Maybe a dozen pages back in a side conversation about Slumbercoaches, I’d suggested either regular (inward-slant) or reverse (outward) herringbone style pod seats. I think I could get 40 seats give or take two, with a pair of bathrooms, and that handily beats the 32-passenger Slumbercoach design as long as you aren’t planning to have your own cabin. That said, Amtrak could also go back to Parlor 2-1 seating and get 40 comfortable seats more cheaply.

Also, I was going to talk showers but btg beat me to it. If an Amtrak “Comfort Class” passenger wants a shower badly enough before their destination, they can buy a shower pass for a sleeper car.

I have to say that regardless of the exact configuration I agree that the idea of open cabin sleeper accommodations is a concept that Amtrak should seriously consider in the future. Could be a good option to look at for the Viewliner I rebuilds.

gokeefe wrote:I have to say that regardless of the exact configuration I agree that the idea of open cabin sleeper accommodations is a concept that Amtrak should seriously consider in the future. Could be a good option to look at for the Viewliner I rebuilds.

Why waste a Viewliner on open-cabin sleepers? You don’t need the extra height and volume; better to use an A-1, Horizon, or next-gen LDSL. Let the Viewliners get full-height berths and bedrooms.

I mentioned the Viewliner Is specifically because they are due for a very substantial overhaul which might actually be cheaper if an open floor plan is used. That and of course the discussion had turned to that car type anyways.

I would not support this level of overhaul on the Amfleets or the Horizon cars. The Amfleets should be retired once they are replaced with the new coaches. I think there's a big question mark hovering over the Horizon fleet and what to do with it. Amtrak may find themselves in the highly unusual position of having more rolling stock than they have use for sometime in the next 10 years.

The airlines reserve overnight bed down for their high dollar customers.

If you want coach overnight berthage on Amtrak, go to Deutsche Bundesbahn and copy the liegewagen (couchette) design... six berths per compartment, 12 compartments per single level cat, 72 pax capacity day and night.

If there's one lesson that Amtrak should have learned over the past 45+ years its that high capacity solutions are often a great answer to certain problems. All too often the "luxury" end of the business is what gets their attention when it really should be "heads in beds" or the equivalent in seats.

It is all about revenue. All this talk but can any cars in a sleeper configuration provide more revenue when they would only be is service at night ? Regular AM-1s probably most are 12 hours some 18 hours and the night owl about 20 hours by turning into a day train at BOS. Of course LD AM-2s much higher with their 26 -34 trip ends. That is noted by the average 40% more miles on AM-2s than AM-1s even though AM-2s are at least 10 years younger

Note that Delta had to jump through hoops to get approval for the walls and doors on these units because it was against the existing rules. Amtrak can extend the walls and doors to full height and offer complete privacy not possible on a plane. So this would not necessarily be an "open cabin" concept.

Also realize that these seats are "off the shelf" and available through Thompson Aero Seating (http://www.thompsonaero.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). They are a version of the VantageXL (hard to find actually but under the gallery pics). Checking out some of these models you can understand that some of the more elaborate ones just might be at the $100K mark as mentioned above.

east point wrote:It is all about revenue. All this talk but can any cars in a sleeper configuration provide more revenue when they would only be is service at night ? Regular AM-1s probably most are 12 hours some 18 hours and the night owl about 20 hours by turning into a day train at BOS. Of course LD AM-2s much higher with their 26 -34 trip ends. That is noted by the average 40% more miles on AM-2s than AM-1s even though AM-2s are at least 10 years younger

Next the cost of these lie flats have to be spread out over their expected life. Airlines will get much more allocated revenue per 24 hours for these units.

Bottom line:

If you cannot put 48 seats into a single level coach, or 72 seats into a Seperliner, this is a fools errand from the git go.

See also slumbercoaches.

John_Perkowski wrote:Bottom line:

If you cannot put 48 seats into a single level coach, or 72 seats into a Seperliner, this is a fools errand from the git go.

See also slumbercoaches.

The equivalent of 12 quad berth compartments? - that’s a good goal to shoot for. Not even open sections can beat that capacity. Not sure whether Amtrak could successfully sell America on six-bed compartments.

Has there ever been such a thing as a double section, i.e. four seats and two double beds? It would earn you that 48-seat nominal capacity if fully occupied by traveling couples, and one double section could be purchased by folks who want a w-i-d-e bed and couch to themselves. No good for more than two unaccompanied travelers who aren’t interested in sleeping next to each other though.