Overhead catenary in GCT?

Some years ago, I thought I had read that in the Terminal area at GCT, there are wires in the cieling for pantograph pick-up.

OK, I realize the clearance issue, and that a pantograph couldn't be fully extended, but I figure that a wire for alternate pick-up is possible.

What's the facts on that, and what is the clearance of the tunnel in GCT, versus Pennsylvania Station, with it's overhead wires?

Thanks!

Dieter.

I was in GCT last week.

I don't recall seeing any catenary lines in GCT, although I have seen the pantographs raised. I'm not sure what the clearance is, and if they could be raised fully.

As far as I know, electric units switch to 3rd Rail around (don't remember exactly) Fordham. Diesel units switch to 3rd Rail around 125th Street.

The electirc switch for New Haven trains is around Pelham.

The "wires in the ceiling" were for third rail pickup through a small pantograph. The first 30 NH FL-9s were delivered with such a pantograph and other NYC or NH equipment of the time may have had this as well. The reasoning was so that if a locomotive had become "stalled" due to gaps in the third rail, it could raise the pantograph and get power to get through the gap. From what I have read, this never worked well, and the second batch of FL-9s didn't receive the pantograph. I don't believe the wire exists anymore, but I'm sure Dutch can fill us in on any more details.

-Jay

Jay is correct, although it was actually a rail mounted to the ceiling, not a wire. Most has been removed, but there are still some remnants in places. Unlikely you'd be able to see it from inside a train.

Jim

New York Central's third-rail electric switchers had two tiny pantographs to bridge the third rail gap when switching from one track to another.
Example: Alco-GE S-1 switcher #100, now 100 years old:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nyc100.jpg

The E 10 B switching engine had an over head pan as well - they are on the scrap line at Harmon. The Ceiling mounted third rail still exists and can still be seen very plainly. It no longer works however.

How many of the E 10 B units are still around? I thought they scrapped at least one (4752?) at NWP.

Thanks everyone for your feedback! I knew I had heard something about overhead in GCT years ago, and I also remember seeing those little runners on the top of the switchers.

Did Danbury get a switcher when they got rid of them?

Dieter.

The 3 E10b's were cut up about a month ago, only one is surviving somewere near niagrafalls but it was never a MNCR unit.

The overhead third rail was meant to bridge the gap across very long switches in the terminal- especially for short engines like the S-motors. The NYC electric locos had short fixed pans. The NH FL9 as-built had a small retractable pan (retractable so it wouldn't accidentally make contact with NH's 11,000v AC catenary, no doubt)... but from what I hear the timing to raise and lower the pan within GCT was guesswork at best- and often resulted in a shower of sparks and third rail pulled off the ceiling!

If you look in the GCT tunnels today, over very long slip switches and the like, you can see the pathways where overhead third rail was attached- but from my last observations, I saw no third rail mounted to the ceiling.

NYC employed a similar "overhead" third rail system within Detroit Michigan Central Station. The Detroit Tunnel was third rail electrified, but from what I understand, the third rail was mounted on scaffold overhead within the limits of the passenger platforms- for obvious safety reasons.

Western New York Railway Historical Society has a Niagara Junction E10B in its collection, stored in the elements in South Buffalo. A Dutch said, this E10 never came East to MTA. All of the E10B's that were on MN were cut up in November 2004. They were designed to run off of 600v DC trolley wire (trolley wire NOT catenary). When those units came to MTA, I heard the rooftop pan was deactivated and nullified to prevent accidental contact or damage within GCT.

-otto-

Otto, et all,

Any reason on the books that the Central went with a third rail, over catenary?

It seems to me that if steam engines were banned in New York City because of safety visibility issues from smoke, that the City Elders would have been equally concerned about a live rail mounted on the ground.

I wonder what the ratio is of electrocution victims of 3rd rail Vs. Catenary over the years?

I would think that the Central would have elected catenary as the way to go, especially in the tunnels for worker safety and clearance issues.

Dieter.

Third rail is extremely safe and less troublesome than catenary. It doesn't reach out and grab you as some people may think. It's also no problem to step over it - it's not like leaping over Niagara Falls.

As a railroader, I believe overhead wire is more dangerous than 3rd rail territory, for the most part. More people die in catenary territory every year thanin 3rd rail territory.

Aside from suicides, my theory for this is that with no 3rd rail on the ground, people are lulled into a false sense of security that the railroad tracks are safe. Until they get clipped by a train in 70 mph territory.

There have been a few electrocutions with third rail - none in my recent memory.

Personally, I don't think it's that big a deal. Third rail is perfectly safe, you justneed to treat it with respect.

Terminal Proceed wrote:Third rail is extremely safe and less troublesome than catenary. It doesn't reach out and grab you as some people may think. It's also no problem to step over it - it's not like leaping over Niagara Falls.

As a railroader, I believe overhead wire is more dangerous than 3rd rail territory, for the most part. More people die in catenary territory every year thanin 3rd rail territory.

Aside from suicides, my theory for this is that with no 3rd rail on the ground, people are lulled into a false sense of security that the railroad tracks are safe. Until they get clipped by a train in 70 mph territory.

There have been a few electrocutions with third rail - none in my recent memory.

Personally, I don't think it's that big a deal. Third rail is perfectly safe, you justneed to treat it with respect.

This is absolutely true and in addition, there are no public crossings at
grade in New York City.
At least as far as my memory goes back to the former New Haven Railroad, there were more fatal injuries from the overhead AC than from
the third rail DC.
Those who know electricity, RESPECT IT.
Noel Weaver

Catenary is not required in NYS law, so the MTA will not opt for a more expensive method of electrification anytime soon in GCT.