Our Book

Ok, before you all start groaning and laughing hear me out.

I was thinking of assembling a small group of people from here to produce a book of pictures and stories of the LIRR.
Now by no stretch of the imagination, I don’t know the first thing on writing a book or even how to even start to do one, but there are people here that have and hopefully they can steer us in the right direction.
There are so many pictures out there that mark the history of the LIRR, most of them have not been seen by anyone, and we’ve seen some of this work from different people here on this site. And stories, well where do I begin?
Listen; in no way would I want to pressure anybody out there to lend us their pictures or their stories. I just don’t want to see these things fade into dust. It’s just that there is so much that I hope they would like to share with everyone.
So, please just toss this around and see if it’s a good idea or am I just taking too many pain pills! Oh, by the way, only people who know how to spell are allowed to be part of this! Only kidding Joe!

Mike
With the help of Emfinite Joe, only he doesn’t know yet.

Mike, I think that would be a swell idea! Blend some old, maybe some new to. Im sure there will be plenty of guys here willing to help..I sure would..
- Paul

Depending on how much you have to lay out up front will determine the route you may wish to travel.

I chose Arcadia, because, while their royalties stink and the only way I can make any decent money is to sell the book myself, they do 2 things:
1. Pay for EVERYTHING up front (all you pay for are your photos if you have to print them, or have them printed)
2. Market your book all over the US and the world. My books have been marketed as far away as Germany, UK and Japan!!!!

There's always private publishing, but that may be unreliable unless you're lucky enough to get a reputable publisher. I asked a guy who prints the nice, hardback, coffee-table books, similar to the 2-volume Dock Railway set by Flagg and he told me you have to have about $20,000 up front for him to consider your work.

Now, assuming you have that kind of money, you can sell your book for $40.00, but you'd have to sell a hellluva lot of books just to break even.

Plus, the more the book costs, the less sales you have!!!!!! And they're not going to be marketed unless you do the legwork!

Plus . . . DO YOU have 20G's to layout up front? I don't.



Ziel tried to save money by getting his "Pennsy Era on LI" published in Hong Kong. Look at the crappy quality of those photos!!!! Could've been a really nice book.

You don't want people saying that about your hard work: "Could've been a nice book if . . . .."

So . . . .think long and hard. Remember, a private publisher will publish just about anything. Even a book about the lice on your dog. It is the other type publisher who eats all the costs up front that takes the chance with you and may either accept your proposal for a book or turn you down.

Remember . . . some of the best authors in the world have been turned down by one publisher, only to become millionaires with another.

And forget the dollar signs in your head!! You're not going to make any money doing this . . . It has to be a labor of love. I know it was for me. Between the money it cost me to print a total of 400+ photos, then my train fare to NY for the book signing and return, and all my hours in the darkroom, with my wife fuming outside the door because I wasn't helping her on all those weekends to do chores around the house . . . . . it ain't cheap!!!!

Good luck with whatever you decide.

If you decide to go with Arcadia, let me know and I can give you contact information. Remember, though, they have a strict format you need to follow.

Another thing to consider, is, are you about to step on someone else's toes, by putting out a book? For example, say you've got the idea to put out a color book on LIRR diesels. And, let's say that John Scala has had plans on coming out with a 2nd edition of his Diesels of the Sunrise Trail book. And let's say that, coincidentially, your's comes out the same time as his . . . .

You may not only create hard feelings with him, as he may think you did this intentionally, to hurt his sales, but your sales may also suffer, as more people may wish to buy his book over yours.

You also wish to time the release of your book just before the holiday season, where sales soar, so you have to prepare in advance, to be done in time for holiday purchasing!

These are just random things that have come to mind that you need to think about. There's really a lot more to it than getting together a bunch of photos and mailing them into the printer. I've found that out!

As I said . . . my offer of help and suggestions are open.

Dave

I'll certainly allow publication of some of my images, providing the project gets some traction and shows that it isn't "pie-in-the-roundhouse" stuff. Certainly, you may use any of the images I have already put on the Forum.

Never said it would be easy. Dave, thanks for the great inside info.

Mike

My pleasure.

And, please don't think I was trying to be negative about your idea . . . on the contrary, I'm all for it! I was only trying to provide some input from someone who's been there only recently.

Let me know if I can be of any help as your project unfolds.

Also, I forgot to mention: some publishers will NOT accept scans. They will ONLY accept hard copy photos/postcards, etc.

They prefer to scan the photos themselves, using their high-end equipment. That's an expense that needs to be taken into consideration.

When Ziel put his Victorian Stations book together, some of those ancient photos from the Brooklyn Public Library dated 1870s were being sold by the BPL for $20 a hit back then!!! Ziel bought them, made copy negatives, and contined to sell his unauthorized copies at train shows years later. I still see them for sale, along with some of MY photos, on his E-bay store site!!!

Some of us not so larcenous would have to just eat the $20.00 per photo if it was something we needed for publication!

Another thing: You should always remember NEVER use a photo from someone else without first getting their permission for publication, and providing photo credit to the photo once it's published.

Also, NEVER quote from something that's already been published without first getting permission from whoever published the book, magazine article, etc.

GET YOUR FACTS! Don't publish something that you may have "heard" from someone or you THINK happened. Go the extra step and verify it. Ask questions. Do legwork. Don't take the easy way out and figure a "close-enough" date, fact, etc. is OK. I've discovered lots of contradictions in data that I thought was Gospel until a little further research found contradictions. Sometimes the contradictions were with the SAME person's listing of data!!!!!

I've had lots of help with research from a lot of people and I give them all credit where credit is due. This isn't something that one person can do. That's why you'll see a list of names in the front of my books (and other people's books) under "Acknowledgements."

Dave

Real funny Mike! lol

I will use spell check or will learn to spell for the book

I'm down for it.

Mike,

First of all, great idea. Got your email and then read the post. I have heard many forum members kicking this idea around for a while now, but never took it seriously. I would be the first one to say that I am all about making money, but I have to be honest here that this book effort would be strictly for the love of trains, NOT profit. I think it's an all around excellent idea and I think it is not far fetched at all. Our wishes and thoughts about bringing back an Alco to Long Island may never be met, but this book is definitely within reach. If we put our heads together, I am sure we'll do just fine at getting our own book published and at the same time, preserve LIRR history.

I would be much more then willing to lend any of my pictures, stories and memories to a cause such as this. I also have many personal friends who would lend theirs as well.

Dave, meeting you first hand twice, once at your house in Florida and once here on Long Island at the Greenberg train show, I have to say you are a very intelligent man and know your LIRR history quite well. In my mind, you are the name and face that pops into my head when I think of RR history here on Long Island. If anybody would be the most help, it would be you. We thank you your support so far.

Richard, I think all forum contributors would be more then delighted to see your pictures and stories in the pages of a collaborative book. The idea of an effort such as this where all members contribute in some form or another would definitely be a milestone in the RR.net history. I know many forum members have been published, but a comprehensive book with information compiled by those wishing to participate would be something on a complete different level!

Let no one be denied here. Everybody will be able to help in some form or another whether it be a photo contribution or page layout. As Dave will tell us, there is much more to publishing a book than what meets the eye. He showed me first hand every photo to appear in his and Steve's second book and told me what he went through to get them the way they are. He had to send out many negatives and slides into which they were made prints. He also had to work with what he had and I can say that he did this quite well.

With the guiding light of Dave Keller and the intelligent minds of forum members here, I can see, what is now just a thought on paper, materializing into something we can all enjoy. Please, if anybody else is interested in this idea, let us know and we will brainstorm TOGETHER. Let this be a group effort, not a one sided takeover. Everybody should get a chance to participate.

Thanks guys
Joe

Hi Mike & Joe,

The book is a great idea! Plenty of forum members have photos and stories “pictorials” if you will from years past up through the present. I will gladly contribute a few photos and stories and can help out with the production as well. Although I have never published a book I’m aware a lot of work goes into it! Feel free to e-mail or message me.

Thanks,
Barry

I want to chime in with some friendly advice, since I work in the publishing industry, and I just completed a self-publshed book project.

Last year I was involved in a book about the New York, Westchster & Boston. The author bankrolled the project himself. He paid for my production, design, and illustration services. That means he paid me to scan and retouch all the photos and news clippings, he paid for the maps and illustrations I drew, and he paid me to layout the book and work with the printing company on the production issues (paper selections, ink densitites, etc etc). I also helped edit copy. I greatly reduced my rates (ie, I donated them) because the author was a friend and I had a vested interest in the book.

Let's forget about that for a minute.

The flat out cost to print our book was in the ballpark of $10,000. The book is 128 pages black and white, saddle stitched, on 70-lb. matte finish paper, with a hardcover that was done in color. There were 1,000 total books printed at roughly $10 a book. In order to recover the investment and make the book attractive to dealers and jobbers, the final retail price was somewhere around $35.00. If the dealer and jobber cannot make a profit reselling the book, they are not going to touch it. Oh, and you'll also have to pay freight and find a place to store a stacked pallet of books. No, they wont deliever to your house.

Let's forget about that for a minute.

After the book was published, we then advertised its release in some of the major magazines. They have their rate cards printed, but for a decent size ad (a 1/6th of a page, a 1/4, or a 1/3sq), you'll pay upwards of $500-$1,000... and up it by two if you add color.

Let's forget about that for a minute.

Before I even went into this project, I looked around at the market. The last book about the NYWB had been published maybe 15 years ago. It was a sort of down-and-dirty affair, softcover and mostly photos. Twenty years before that, Roger Arcara assembled bits and pieces of his own to make a rather cumbersome 128-page softcover time. I figured the time was right for an attractive black-and-white hardcover book. Luckily, we guessed right.

And even forget about that.

I had to go find a printer to do this book. Depot Square publishing in Ohio helped me find a printer in Michigan who did a decent job with the book. He made an introduction for me that saved me months of runaround. If a printing company doesn't know you, you'll get a hard time from everyone. Depot Square told their customer service rep who I was, what my experiences were in publishing, and that everything should go smoothly nudge nudge wink wink. ie- Don't screw around because Otto is in publishing and he'll smell BS a mile away.

I think a Long Island Rail Road book would be great- you may want to approach some of the established publishers with your idea- they may be able to help you out and give you some advice. Consider Railroad Explorer, TRP, Railpace, and perhaps even Mineola's Weekend Chief. ;-) They can offer you advice on how to go about your project and help you avoid costly mistakes.

In summary- a quality publication will cost you a $10,000 outlay to start (and that's only black and white). You will need to hire a designer (and possibly an editor), you will have to get all your materials professionally scanned and retouched. You need to find a printing company to work with. You'll need to make some educated forecasts as to the market demand for your book. What is the focus? Who is your target audience? And finally, you'll need additional outlay to promote your book to the masses.

If I can help answer any questions, please let me know.

-otto-
Production Manager, Hudson Valley Magazine
Associate Art Director, Westchester Magazine
and proud designer of the NYWB book: http://www.nywbry.com/order.htm

May I also reccomend virtual publishing?

I would gladly accept some quality material for RAILROAD.NET... I bet Paul in Redlands could easily come up with 10 or 12 vintage color images that would make an excellent article for this site.

It's a good way to test the waters.

And I would accept quality images from anyone. Let me know what you want to do a story on, and I'll help you develop the article. Not a writer? That's what editors can help you with.

And before you say "RAILROAD.NET isn't like real publishing," I would merely point out that we've been on the 'net since 1996, and many other sites reference our articles and photos every day. Our on-line authors are respected as is the standing of this site in the community. So come forward and contribute!

-otto-

If you want to use anything from the Long Island Rail Road History website, just let me know.

Wow, the responses posted are great! I thought you would all think I was nutty, just goes to show! Anyway, this doesn't have to happen tomorrow. Maybe we have to scale it back some, I don't know. But, myself and Joe will be the team leaders on this, others added as the ball gets rolling. I don't where to begin to thank the members who offered their work! I mean that sincerely! Any and all input is wanted here. But, lets start slow. Thanks again.

Mike

What are the blueprints for this project? how many pages? what era, how will the Era's be organized if it spans more then modern times?

I think this is something that some of the rarly seen footage of the LIRR would make it a seller.

PS, ill spell check any thing i may contribute, hehe, proof readers stand by:

Joe,

Nothing is written in stone yet. I just putting out ideas.

Mike