NYC MTA Congestion Pricing Effects on NYCT, NJT, MNRR, and LIRR

RichM wrote:With a docile population that's used to a Nanny-state mentality, and a natural perimeter or defined points of access, it works.

Manhattan?

Fuggettaboutid.

I do not think that description fits Londoners either but congestion charges work there.

With current technology access points or check points are not needed. London does not have them. Basically license plates are read electronically and checked against a database of who has paid that day. IIRC, in London there are various ways to pay including using your cell phone. You just need to pay within a certain time period. If you do not there are consequences. NY can use a combination of pre established accounts and cellphone payments for occasional visitors or tourists for example.

This post is starting to drift a little off topic, and I'm contributing to that now, but I think this is needed for clarficiation purposes:

As Mark Schweber said, as far as the infrastructure needed for implementing this toll, if NYC implements the same system the have in London, it will not require toll-booth style systems with massive toll plazas and backups. From Wikipedia:

The [London] scheme makes use of CCTV cameras which record vehicles entering and exiting the zone. They can record number plates with a 90% accuracy rate through Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) technology[50][51] There are also a number of mobile camera units which may be deployed anywhere in the zone. The majority of vehicles within the zone are captured on camera. The cameras take two still pictures in colour and black and white and use infra red technology to identify the number plates on cars. These identified numbers are checked against the list of payees overnight by computer. In those cases when a number plate has not been recognised then they are checked by humans.[50] Those that have paid but have not been seen in the central zone are not refunded, and those that have not paid and are seen are fined. The registered owner of such a vehicle is looked up in a database provided by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA), based in Swansea.[52] The cameras can be fooled by tail gating or switching lanes at the correct time.[50]
TfL ran a six month trial of Tag and Beacon from February 2006 to replace the camera based system. This uses an electronic card affixed to the windscreen of a vehicle and can be used to produce "smart tolls" where charges can be varied dependent on time and direction of travel. This system automatically deducts the charge so that the 50,000 drivers a year who forget to pay the fine would not be penalised. TfL have suggested that this scheme could be introduced from 2009.


The system simply looks at each car entering to see if its liscense plate is registered in the system. The second paragraph about the system that they are testing seems very similar to E-Z pass express, like that used on the GSP, which is obviously a technology that has been proven to work, without huge toll plazas.

Therefore, I think that the physical barriers preventing this from working could be overcome relatively easilyl, the largest being monitoring entrance from Manhattan above 86th, and massive congestion and parking demand immediately outside the congestion zone. However, mass transit capacity issues could be a major problem, though I don't know enough to say.

So more on topic, how many more riders could NJT handle due to the pricing plan, and what are the biggest barriers? Lack of equipment? Lack of tunnel capacity? Lack of station capcity at Hoboken and NY Penn? (On an off-topic note, is PATH in a position to deal with the huge surge it would likely face as well?) Would the THE Tunnel help this much? Would there be a potential for slightly more capacity at Penn after the East Side Access project is completed, or is LIRR definitely holding onto its slots at Penn no matter what?

Not my intention to start a flame war, but I drive in London, Singapore and many other places in Europe, though not every day. I don't need to see a reference from an internet point of reference. I have direct experience with these systems.

Do you think it's simple to scan license plates? Use a cell phone for billing, especially here in the US? And I wasn't stating that toll / scan booths were necessary, but that there is a tremendous cost in time and money associated with whatever technology was proposed. And of course, yet another governmnent entity, or several, to "manage" it.

More to your point, mass transit is at the breaking point around the area, not only NJT but MTA as well. It's ridiculous to propose a radical change without the alternative support plan as well.

RichM wrote:there is a tremendous cost in time and money associated with whatever technology was proposed.

The cost for the infrastructure would be next to nothing for New York because most of the money would come from a federal pilot program grant.

The quote from Wikipedia was only to point out that any system that is implemented would not create huge backups on the east river crossings, as was suggested in earlier posts. You are correct in your statement that any system implemented will be costly and complex, at least in the short term. Indeed, in London the company that administers the congestion charge, Capita Group, had to be bailed out by the Gov't because they werent making a profit, though this was mainly due to unpaid fines for driving in the congestion zone without paying.

However, the reasons for this plan seem to be more important than just appearing to be environmentally friendly, or bringing in revenue for the city. When delays both in and out of the Hudson crossings routinely average 45 minutes or more, and the number of workers in Manhattan likely to increase over the coming years, how many more cars can Manhattan handle without its streets being plagued with complete gridlock for 18 hours a day? And even more troubling is the traffic situation in the NY metro area in general, higher volume and more delays at the tunnels could cause gridlock on all of the major arteries in the region.

Though problems of this scale probably arent likely for over a decade or more, nipping it in the bud is never a bad solution. Provided Bloomberg takes the necessary steps to upgrade mass transit, as he said he would do when announcing this proposal, I dont think that the plan poses all that many problems. And even if it is difficult and expensive to implement, it or something very similar will ultimately become absolutely necessary in the future.

Scanning license plates is obviously a complex process, but it is effective enough to make the London plan work, even if it is not yet a resounding success. And though it is expensive right now, if history is any indicator, the technology involved will be come more effective and efficient, and less costly as the years progress. Not to mention that E-Z Pass like systems are cost effective enough to be widely adopted across the northeast, and have proven very reliable.

Do you think it's simple to scan license plates?

They find it simple enough on the high-speed E-Z Pass lanes on the Garden State Parkway. If you drive through those without paying the toll, a ticket will arrive in the mail, your address having been found via a photograph of your license plate while you were driving at highway speeds. This is in spite of the costs thereof. Cars within Manhattan travel at far lower speeds.

True, Irish, but that assumes you own a transponder for the system. I'm not arguing that a majority of daily Hudson River crossers have EZPass, I'm raising the question for the East and Harlem River crossings...

By the way, does this "free money" from the federal government include the transponders, or just the readers?

Because if that "free money" is really available, wouldn't it be better spent improving mass transit first so more people would use it, rather than penalize many of those who might not have an alternative? That's the relevency of this topic on this board, isn't it?

Dig the Hudson tunnel, bring the LIRR into GCT, provide the means for MN's Connecticut trains to enter an improved Penn... THEN make it punitive to drive in.

By the way, does anyone know what the Port Authority takes in annually in bridge and tunnel tolls?

that assumes you own a transponder for the system

It's the ones that lack the transponders that get caught. And they're caught using their license plates.

Dig the Hudson tunnel, bring the LIRR into GCT, provide the means for MN's Connecticut trains to enter an improved Penn

What would an "improved Penn" consist of? Penn was never designed to handle its current traffic; and since THAT tunnel is meant to "double" the number of trains coming in from the west with a mere additional six tracks, it raises the question of how many more tracks and platforms will be needed to add commuter trains from the Hell Gate line and if the East River tunnels have the capacity to handle same, not to mention creating a dedicated fleet of Cosmopolitan-type EMUs that lack third-rail contact shoes for non-interference with LIRR third rails. Furthermore, since all Metro-North trains save WOH (NJT) service already reach Manhattan, re-routing into Penn is without merit and redundant service. (LIRR would not be giving up any slots to Metro-North trains, if that's what anyone's thinking, in spite of ESA.)

Not to mention that there are several diesel-territory LIRR trains that currently never reach Manhattan, and will not do so via ESA. (The question of extending West Hempstead Branch trains into Manhattan, terminating at either NYP or GCT, remains open, since there are a number of same that currently terminate at Jamaica.)

Point is, it's not necessary to get all commuter trains into Manhattan first to consider the whole "congestion charge" matter. Businesses lose billions per day in lost production via congestion; this can only benefit them, as unwieldy as they are.

We're not that far away my friend, I'm just saying that the alternative methods to driving aren't particularly attractive now, without a 5-10% increase in ridership.

And who is paying for the folks that come in from the east side's transponders?

What I am saying is Field of Dreams... build it (the rail infrastructure) and they will come. Force it, and the high salary work force will flee.

RichM wrote:By the way, does this "free money" from the federal government include the transponders, or just the readers?

This is a bit of a red herring because transponders cost about $20 (per this document, page 22), which is a fraction compared with the total cost of the infrastructure investment for the total cost of the system. Even equipping 250,000 vehicles gratis would cost only ten percent of the total amount of federal money that the city is expecting from the feds ($500 million). Besides, even if the users had to buy their own EZ-Pass, it would be a small part of their overall commuting expenses (two and a half days of the congestion charge).

RichM wrote:Because if that "free money" is really available, wouldn't it be better spent improving mass transit first so more people would use it, rather than penalize many of those who might not have an alternative? That's the relevancy of this topic on this board, isn't it?

Then talk to the Feds. The money is available specifically for pilot programs to test the use of the congestion charge. The city cannot use it to pay for mass transit directly, only by the revenue it generates.

RichM wrote:Dig the Hudson tunnel, bring the LIRR into GCT, provide the means for MN's Connecticut trains to enter an improved Penn... THEN make it punitive to drive in.

Do you mean to suggest that children in New York should be subjected to ten more years of asthma causing pollution due to congestion while THE tunnel, ESA, etc. are being built? Congestion is not just a problem for down the road, it is a problem for today which is only getting worse and needs solutions ASAP, not when it is most convenient. Besides, Manhattan is the most transit rich area of the country, both within and leading to it. People may be inconvenienced by the taking mass transit, but it is accessible to anyone within the metropolitan area who already has a car. If you don't have a car, congestion pricing won't hurt you. If you absolutely need to have your car for either your job or some other vital reason, then all the mass transit projects in the world are not going to help you, so there is no reason to delay in that case either.

Moreover, many of these projects need funding which has to come from somewhere. Delaying funding for ten years would only delay future city mass transit projects such as the later phases of the Second Ave Subway, etc.

Besides, the whole issue of delaying it is moot because the money is only available for a pilot project if approved by this summer.

RichM wrote:By the way, does anyone know what the Port Authority takes in annually in bridge and tunnel tolls?

I've found it before, but I forget off-hand. You can dig through the financial statements and annual reports located here.

Edit
I misspoke: 250,000 transponders would be only 1 percent of the total amount of money that the city is asking for, not 10 percent.

RichM wrote:What I am saying is Field of Dreams... build it (the rail infrastructure) and they will come. Force it, and the high salary work force will flee.

That's not even true. Not every way into the city is full at rush hour -- I've used the trains myself. They are crowded, but it's not like no one else can fit on the train. And still, plenty of people drive. I would wager there are a large number of people for whom that adage does not work.

As far as the NY congestion pricing, my girlfriend has been reading about this more than I have and says that from what she's seen, cameras are the plan for NY.

Corzine says he wants more people to ride mass transit, then says he doesn't know if our mass transit system can handle it?

What are some short-term goals that can be met if congestion pricing goes into effect? Longer trains? More trains? More trains to Hoboken and have a ferry/PATH switch?

BTW, the reason why Bloomberg is doing this is to get more federal money for other projects. Can congestion pricing work anywhere in NJ? How about Newark? Trenton?…any thoughts?

The two biggest complaints to congestion pricing is the price and the inconvenience. Hmmm...pretty dumb excuses. NYC has every right to administer the traffic patterns in their city for a variety of reasons. You can't have 18 hours of gridlock a day. How can emergency services get through? Plain and simple, if you want to work in Manhattan, join the rest of the ham-and-eggers and get on a train, bus or ferry. I don't see traffic being bad on the Queens and Brooklyn side, since if they don't 'want to cross the bridges, they're not going to park near a subway stop right there...it's quicker to skip the drive and take the subway from eastern Queens, etc.

Why does Metro North need to use the same 21 old + 6 new tracks at Penn Station? Why don't they just bore out a tunnel 10 stories down and come in from Hell Gate and from under GCT. Duplicate tunnels under the East River wouldn't be a bad thing.

Now to try to get back on topic and how this would affect Jersey...Path would be put to the test. But what Lower Manhattan really needs is a terminal of their own, and continue the LIRR from Flatbush, and get NJT into Lower Manhattan directly. But most of these pie-in-the sky plans won't be built for decades. Jersey has room on the near outskirts of NYC to build huge park-and-ride stations...Secaucus, South Kearny, Newark, etc., or even upgrade existing P&R stops like Metropark, where you can get people out of their cars. But it involves a lot of money and agencies playing nice in the sandbox.

The two biggest complaints to congestion pricing is the price and the inconvenience. Hmmm...pretty dumb excuses. NYC has every right to administer the traffic patterns in their city for a variety of reasons. You can't have 18 hours of gridlock a day. How can emergency services get through? Plain and simple, if you want to work in Manhattan, join the rest of the ham-and-eggers and get on a train, bus or ferry. I don't see traffic being bad on the Queens and Brooklyn side, since if they don't 'want to cross the bridges, they're not going to park near a subway stop right there...it's quicker to skip the drive and take the subway from eastern Queens, etc.

I'd have to agree with your above statement~!

However, it is also the fault of our shortsightedness politicians and planners from NJDOT and the highway minded lobbyists who worked in Trenton when they proposed the Aldene plan back in the 1960's... Can you imagine how much better shape we would all be if the CNJ and Erie Jersey City terminals were still in service today?? I guess they didn't foresee the problems that the interstate highway system would cause 40 to 50 years down the road!

Now they are forced to spend billions for a new tunnel because everyone wants the one seat ride into the city while at the same time NY Penn can barely handle the new trains as it is!

<g>
The radio personality Jean Shepherd used to point out from time to time that New York City (meaning Manhattan) was the only city in the US that charged admission. <g>[/quote]

Ok I'm a little off topic...but someone else used to listen to Jean Shepherd
on WOR AM 10pm, 40 years ago. Way to go.