NTSB Issues Safety Recommendations to Metro North

The NTSB has released a safety recommendation letter to Metro North as part of the investigation into the December derailment, as well as other recent incidents. Recommendations include permanent speed restriction signs as well as audio and video recording devices to aid in incident investigations and crew safety and rules compliance. The report can be found here: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/2 ... 07-009.pdf

It's always interested me which railroads do and do not use PSR signs as one might think they are a cheap and effective way to increase rules compliance.

Uses Signs:
UP
BNSF
CSX

Does Not Use:
NORAC/Conrail
MNRR
LIRR
NS

Not sure
CP
CN

Interestingly enough NORAC is the only one that uses specific temporary speed restriction flags.

I suspect that the greater use of PSR signs in the South and West is due to the decreased strength of organized labor in those areas as greater route knowledge requirements makes it much harder to replace striking crews. Amtrak's partial use of catenary mounted PSR signs was actually initiated as a way to deal with a threatened strike in the 1980's by allowing managers to run the trains, hence why they are referred to as "scab boards". NORAC doesn't help matters by requiring PSR signs be mounted a non-trivial distance from the ground compared to TSR signs which are on short posts. The only NORAC PSR sign I am aware off off the NEC is on the NJT ACL approaching the Haddonfield cut from the south and it is mounted on a 10 foot pole.

What are PSR and TSR signs?

Permanent Speed Restriction and Temporary Speed Restriction Signs, mickey assumes everyone speaks Rail Geek..

Thanks. That was my guess, but I'd rather be a fool for asking instead of a fool for guessing wrong.

By the way, I only know PCC and GG1

While I support the use of wayside speed restriction signs, it is still the duty of the engineer to know where all speed changes happen and I doubt displaying such signs will do anything to avoid what happened in the Bronx.

Clean Cab wrote:While I support the use of wayside speed restriction signs, it is still the duty of the engineer to know where all speed changes happen and I doubt displaying such signs will do anything to avoid what happened in the Bronx.

While I agree that more is needed than just posting signs [e.g. physical systems to enforce safe speeds], I suspect that there are better things for engineers to spend mind-space remembering than a list of speed restriction locations, which could be posted with trivial expense.

Sometimes I wonder whether some decisions which railroads make are done simply to maintain the "we are different from highways" talking point - and not for any real technical or operational reason. We don't expect automobile drivers to memorize the locations all of the speed limit changes on the roads where they drive; rather we post them at the side of the road in nice big black and white signs which read "Speed Limit"...

putting up to many signs, to much automation etc, only opens job up to less and less qualified people.
therefore making it more prone to other mistakes, and making risk greater.
All the knee jerk reactions by NTSB - FRA - politicians will get you accident sooner, not later.
Spuyten Duyvil curve was safe for over 100 years with nearly 200 trains a day, Do you really believe it will me more or less time for next accident ?????

You people do realize this is a railroad we are talking about not a highway? Just because speed signs are put up does not mean an unqualified person can run a train over the territory, or that memorizing every restriction and MAS over the territory one qualifies on will not be a part of the required training. The signs are just an aid. If you were to run a train just by the signs not being qualified on the territory you would be exceeding the speeds in the majority of the restrictions or not even knowing where and what the sign is referring to. Running a train requires thinking 3 steps ahead not play by play.

Darn I should have figured that out after 30 years, you beat me EM2000 so how many years do you have ??

I was not referring to you, but to the armchair Engineers in the thread.

Jersey_Mike wrote:Does Not Use:
LIRR

The LIRR actually does use signs to alert engineers of speed restrictions. Here is a photo I took of one recently put in place around Massapequa station. They are also used at many other locations on the railroad.

Being a Locomotive engineer is NOT like driving a car, signs are useless unless you know where braking spots are for different kind of equipment.
The job of Engineer is to maintain qualifications, by knowing your Bulletin orders and other mandatory directives, your Time table, your schedule etc.
Signs are cute, but to easily missed in a snow storm or foggy morning, its another feel good measure by NTSB and their committees, who have never been in cab other than on a nice 70's and sunny day.

Amen Dutch, IMHO its just dumbing down the craft even further.

In light of the incident at Spuyten Duvil, I'm going to break ranks on the signs and here is why. Unless something has changed, all we know is the engineer "zoned out." Many have declared that this is not the same thing as falling asleep and/or dozing off and rightly so. Since there are no cameras in the engines (for now) everyone is left to assume that he just had a brain fart, which is feasible.

Therefore, it is also reasonable to assume that perhaps the sign (whizzing by) might have been enough to snap him back into the zone.

Signs are visual aids. If there is a speed restriction at MP 38.3, we have speed limit signs at mp 38.3...but you also have an approach speed limit signs at braking distance. You could argue those signs are not needed since a qualified engineer has proper paperwork, knows the characteristics of the territory and the train. There are signs all over the railroad, telling you to change radio frequencies, reminding you what subdivision you're entering, what radio channel you're changing to, etc. I'm sure Dutch's career predates the diverging approach speed limit signs and Metro-North had signs at all of the "Q" curves(I know they aren't listed under that. It took a long time to get to"Q" from 1154t curves.)They are not there to replace knowledge. They are present to help a person maintain situational awareness particularly when there is a lot going on in that cab.

I'd rather see a sign that most people won't need than a forced compliance system that treats engineers like a group of trained seals....on camera of course.