New York Study

MDNFan wrote:
It is worth noting that the Interstate system at present cannot be "safe" over about 80mph or so.

The Autobahn was designed from the onset as a high-speed throughfare. This includes limitations on grade, radius of curvature, minimum sightlines, maintenance, and subgrade.

The normal design-speed of Autobahns is 120km/h. (A few one have 140km/h design-speed, Autobahns with less importance only 80 - 100km/h)

Grades are up to 8%! Kurves are down to a radius of 500m.
In such places there are speed limits of 80, 100, 120 or 130km/h...

An there are stretches where 200km/h means coming to the limits of of physics (yeah Kassel-Mountains....)

But there are only one exit to the left in the whole network!

MDNFan wrote:The Interstate was designed as a low-speed military transport net. It was never designed for the speeds you see on the Autobahn. The subgrade is HALF the autobahn's thickness, its not as durable, grade & curvature limitations are much more liberal, and sightline limits are much less. That's not factoring in the maintenance differences & the deadly "straight shot" highways like I-80 and I-57 <snooze>.

Btw. subgrade:
Truck can have an axle load of 11,5 metric tons (double axle load (4 wheels = 1 axle: 19 metric tons, triple axle load = 24 metric tons) on Autobahns . Thats more than allowed on intersates i believe...

MDNFan wrote: In addition, traffic flow is much more varied, cars are not maintained nearly as well, and drivers just don't seem to understand the performance limitations of their cars (a typical American commuter car at 90mph is a projectile- NO swerve capability whatsoever).

Car maintenance and drivers ability can be a problem... sure.

MDNFan wrote:What does this mean for traffic in the future? We can either:
1) drive slower, take longer, and maintain the current system.
2) revamp almost the entire "I" system to allow higher speeds, upgrade maintence & driver requirements to allow safe travel at Autobahn speeds, and burn a lot more fuel than we do now (A= (motive force - bv)/m)
3) build HSR and relegate cars to intracity & rural use.

Which do you think is more likely?

Burn a lot more fuel must not become true.
The average consumption in Germany is 7,5 litre per car and 100km - in the USA it is about 12,5 litre. If you allowed to drive faster you will favor other cars...

Btw: If americans would use diesel engines for her cars in the same extent as french ore german people the USA would save oil as much as they import from Saudi-Arabia...

Saudis wouldnt like this - but maybe that means fewer moneys for terrorism.

Thomas I wrote:
The normal design-speed of Autobahns is 120km/h. (A few one have 140km/h design-speed, Autobahns with less importance only 80 - 100km/h)

Grades are up to 8%! Kurves are down to a radius of 500m.
In such places there are speed limits of 80, 100, 120 or 130km/h...

An there are stretches where 200km/h means coming to the limits of of physics (yeah Kassel-Mountains....)

But there are only one exit to the left in the whole network!

That's funny... when I was stationed "over there" I found driving on the autobahn was best done with one's right foot to the floorboard!

In any event, I feel US Interstate highways are simply more dangerous to drive on than the German Autobahn system, because of:

a) Speed limits in rural areas that are unrealistic

b) The truck traffic that has gone on the highways as railroad capacity has declined

Sure, I saw a number of accidents on the Autobahn in the course of a 2+ year tour of duty. One memorable one, which I saw while riding in a bus en route to a East German border tour, involved a Mercedes doing an honest-to-gosh barrel roll off the Autobahn. There were also the other ones where I knew the occupants hadn't made it out, and were, well... let's not go there.

DB does a solid job; mainstream Americans would be shocked by how they don't need cars in Germany the way they do in the US.

The normal design-speed of Autobahns is 120km/h. (A few one have 140km/h design-speed, Autobahns with less importance only 80 - 100km/h)

Grades are up to 8%! Kurves are down to a radius of 500m.
In such places there are speed limits of 80, 100, 120 or 130km/h...

Actually, according to my info, the original pre-WWII autobahn was designed for 140km/h, with a 4% grade restriction. Grades have gone down and speeds have gone up.
Granted, there are places where lower speeds are necessary to shoehorn a road in, but those sections were never intended for high-speed operation (can you imagine high-speed rail cruising through a switch yard?)

Burn a lot more fuel must not become true.
The average consumption in Germany is 7,5 litre per car and 100km - in the USA it is about 12,5 litre. If you allowed to drive faster you will favor other cars...

Btw: If americans would use diesel engines for her cars in the same extent as french ore german people the USA would save oil as much as they import from Saudi-Arabia...

Burn a lot more fuel (all else being equal). passenger cars are most efficient at roughly 40-50 mph. When you start reaching 80+mph, fuel burn skyrockets! (normal distribution curve)

And yes, a high-performance car can burn less at speed than a car designed for slower speeds (due to arodynamics and power curve).

MDNFan wrote:
Actually, according to my info, the original pre-WWII autobahn was designed for 140km/h, with a 4% grade restriction. Grades have gone down and speeds have gone up.).

Not really. Only parts of A1 (Hamburg - Lübeck) and A2 ave a design-speed of 140km/h.

Grades on the A8 Karlsruhe - Munich, build in the 1930s are also 8%.

Ans also the A7 Hannover - Würzburg build in the 1960s/1970s has garde of 8%.

MDNFan wrote:Granted, there are places where lower speeds are necessary to shoehorn a road in, but those sections were never intended for high-speed operation (can you imagine high-speed rail cruising through a switch yard?)

It is unbelievable but between 1950 and 1973 in Germany existed no speed-limit on all rural streets!!

Burn a lot more fuel must not become true.
The average consumption in Germany is 7,5 litre per car and 100km - in the USA it is about 12,5 litre. If you allowed to drive faster you will favor other cars...

Btw: If americans would use diesel engines for her cars in the same extent as french ore german people the USA would save oil as much as they import from Saudi-Arabia...

Burn a lot more fuel (all else being equal). passenger cars are most efficient at roughly 40-50 mph. When you start reaching 80+mph, fuel burn skyrockets! (normal distribution curve)

And yes, a high-performance car can burn less at speed than a car designed for slower speeds (due to arodynamics and power curve).[/quote]

European cars have the most efficient at between 65 and 75mph...

Going on Autobahn with a speed of 55 to 75mph my BMW only needs 3,2 litre diesel for 100km.

Going at full speed he will need up to an average of 8 litre.

Traveling constantly with 100mph he want to have 7,5 litre for 100km

The overall average consumption of my car is 6,8 litre/100km for the last 50,000 miles

My other 20 year old BMW needs nearly the three-way - but he also need gas and not diesel.

Sam Damon wrote:
That's funny... when I was stationed "over there" I found driving on the autobahn was best done with one's right foot to the floorboard!

To day americans have these look-a-like number plates (the number plates look like German EU-Numbers, but they have the NATO-symbol and not the stars and shown USA instead of D for Germany) so that members of the US army and her families couldn't be recognized not immediately...
It was an action to make Americans safer against terrorism...

However: Enormous US flag stickers and red turn signals...

I have the impression it gives two sorts Americans: The one enjoy traveling on Autobahns (and other european motorways) and like to drive with higher speeds, the others are afraid nearly to death if they must go on motorways or somebody drives faster than 70 - 75mph... (On my university i was involved in the support for the students from the States...
I am ashamed to say, that most of them speaks better german than i english!!)

Sam Damon wrote: In any event, I feel US Interstate highways are simply more dangerous to drive on than the German Autobahn system, because of:

a) Speed limits in rural areas that are unrealistic

b) The truck traffic that has gone on the highways as railroad capacity has declined

Thats in Europe also. There are days at which the right lane looks like a "truck-train" is traveling on the Autobahn...

Sam Damon wrote:Sure, I saw a number of accidents on the Autobahn in the course of a 2+ year tour of duty. One memorable one, which I saw while riding in a bus en route to a East German border tour, involved a Mercedes doing an honest-to-gosh barrel roll off the Autobahn. There were also the other ones where I knew the occupants hadn't made it out, and were, well... let's not go there.

DB does a solid job; mainstream Americans would be shocked by how they don't need cars in Germany the way they do in the US.

Accidents happend, but only a few one cause of high speed, the most by exceeding speed-limits or driving to fast in building sites, fog, rain or snow... or driving drunken or under the influence of drugs.

How does this post have to do with a New York Study or even rail? BTW, one of the designs of the interstate system was so military aircraft(much smaller and slower at that time) could land and take off in case of an invasion where airfields where bombed. That is why the interstates often have specifications limiting their grades and requiring mile segments of straight roadway within regular intervals. I'm not sure how fast the heavy bombers had to go before taking off and land, but the interstate was designed at least for whatever speed that was.

blockss wrote:How does this post have to do with a New York Study or even rail? BTW, one of the designs of the interstate system was so military aircraft(much smaller and slower at that time) could land and take off in case of an invasion where airfields where bombed. That is why the interstates often have specifications limiting their grades and requiring mile segments of straight roadway within regular intervals. I'm not sure how fast the heavy bombers had to go before taking off and land, but the interstate was designed at least for whatever speed that was.

Urban legend. Or, rather more accurate, "rural" legend.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

blockss wrote:How does this post have to do with a New York Study or even rail? BTW, one of the designs of the interstate system was so military aircraft(much smaller and slower at that time) could land and take off in case of an invasion where airfields where bombed. That is why the interstates often have specifications limiting their grades and requiring mile segments of straight roadway within regular intervals. I'm not sure how fast the heavy bombers had to go before taking off and land, but the interstate was designed at least for whatever speed that was.

The success of High-Speed-Railways has also to do with the competitors...
And which concerns the road has Europe another level than the USA.
Trains who are good in competition against cars in states where the maximum speed limit is about 60 - 75mph are not so good in countries whrere you can do an average speed of 80 or 90mph...

Thanks for the response. How does this have to do with "New York Study"?

blockss wrote:Thanks for the response. How does this have to do with "New York Study"?

Read the whole thread (only two pages) and you know it...