New York passenger-rail group says 90 mph is OK for upstate

Friday, June 10, 2011
New York passenger-rail group says 90 mph is OK for upstate intercity passenger trains

As New York state and CSX Transportation officials continue to work out the agreements needed before the state officially can receive its high-speed rail funding, the Empire State Passengers Association (ESPA) this week endorsed a 90 mph speed limit on passenger trains operating on the Class I’s mainline in upstate New York.

The New York State Department of Transportation has been lobbying to operate trains at speeds up to 110 mph along the route; CSXT officials say they won’t allow speeds higher than 90 mph due to safety concerns.

rest of article at:
http://www.hsrupdates.com/news/details/ ... rains--911

Why are they giving up that easily? If CSX is willing to compromise at 90 mph, then I can understand, otherwise, why are they giving up now? Without the train being at 110 mph, the car is still at an advantage timewise.

MCHammer wrote:Why are they giving up that easily? If CSX is willing to compromise at 90 mph, then I can understand, otherwise, why are they giving up now? Without the train being at 110 mph, the car is still at an advantage timewise.

Probably because they've determined that Class 5 track is the sweet spot for maxing profit margins on fast freight, and Class 6 is surplus to a requirement. It's their track and their business; their business interests rule.

Now, when it comes time to tri-track the line and do proper HSR(ish) speeds they'll probably let passenger traffic do what it wants. But tri-tracking isn't on the table yet with the upgrades being staged over the long term so they're asserting their shorter-term business interests.

Hey, have to start somewhere. 90 MPH passenger is a good deal better than 79 MPH, so I don't see how this isn't win-win. If they're shooting for 110+ it might as well be when they're ready for service levels that would support some take-your-pick of bona fide HSR upgrades like third track, substantial grade crossing eliminations, electrification, etc. This is a pretty appropriate initial stage.

MCHammer wrote:Why are they giving up that easily? If CSX is willing to compromise at 90 mph, then I can understand, otherwise, why are they giving up now? Without the train being at 110 mph, the car is still at an advantage timewise.

The talks between the state, FRA, and CSX have apparently been stalled for some time. None of the grants for the CSX track projects in NY state have been obligated, only the station improvements projects mostly. If the choice is to make no progress now & possibly lose the federal funds or accept a compromise of 90 mph top speeds west of Schenectady, take the compromise and get going. I think the FRA - CSX talks have been holding up the HSIPR improvement projects in VA as well.

Found an article on the Empire State Passengers Association statement which does not require a subscription: http://www.timesunion.com/default/artic ... 412485.php.

Fixing the bottlenecks, the slow sections, increasing the number of daily trains and the average speeds, and improving the on-time performance reliability are needed incremental steps. If with 90 mph max speeds west of Schenectady, they can get the NYP to Albany and Albany to Buffalo trip times to get close to driving times with increased frequency of service, the number of people taking train should steadily increase. That will help build support over time for something closer to true HSR with electrified train service. Between Schenectady and Buffalo, that may require laying out some serious funding to acquire some additional ROW space - or entirely new ROW route segment in some areas.

Question: would it be feasible for NY state (or Amtrak with state financing) to buy the tracks & ROW from CSX for Poughkeepsie to Albany and Albany to Schenectady? I know Amtrak owns a short section of track in the Albany area, but I'm not clear on exactly what Amtrak owns. If the state can acquire that part of the route, then they can upgrade it, close grade crossings, and electrify it for 125 mph or faster speeds as the first part of a HSR line across NY state program.

Makes sense to actually move things along and fix the bottlenecks. I am sure CSX would not approve of a purchase of the corridor due to protection of their interest. If a dedicated Albany-NYC line possibility opens up, it would not be worth upgrading Ploughskeepe-Albany. Albany-Schenectady would be worth the purchase since that would be a required connection to Montreal along with Buffalo, hopefully in the future to Toronto since it is just outside the 500 mile range from NYC by rail.

Hmm, I find the 79 > 90 MPH increase kind of paltry and depressing. Is 11 mph increase in speed really going to help that much? I have ridden the Chicago > NY line, the problem on that line is not speed, its congestion with freight. You sit in sidings for 10-30 minutes waiting for CSX freight trains to pass, after blasting along at 79 MPH for half an hour, you lose all your automobile time advantage. Its even worse in Western Mass, since the line is single-tracked there.

anyways, I guess this is how its going to be 'improved' in a decaying empire, Ill take what I can get and hope for more improvments later on..

Chex in Montreal

Problem is CSX has not been negotiating so it is worth to see about sweet talking and at least start a speed-up of the route and reducing congestion on the rail line. Might as well try to get Class V tracks. Class V is the highest you can go for freight speeds which would be able to reach 80 mph.

Earth to Railbuffs " New york and USA are broke"

If anyone would like to read the full Empire State Passengers Association statement, it is posted on the group's website:
www.esparail.org

It's a start. 11 miles an hour may not seen like a lot, but consider it's about 8 hours on the train from NYP to Buffalo. 90mph could cut the trip down by an hour.

I think, I'm not the best mathematician though.

MCHammer wrote:Why are they giving up that easily?

ESPA doesn't seem to fight for much or accomplish much. They were pretty silent on the Turboliner debacle, silent on the loss of cafe car service on the Albany trains, and certainly haven't succeeded in preventing service from deteriorating or in holding anybody accountable for all of the money that New York has wasted on "high speed rail" over the years.

gprimr1 wrote:It's a start. 11 miles an hour may not seen like a lot, but consider it's about 8 hours on the train from NYP to Buffalo. 90mph could cut the trip down by an hour.

I think, I'm not the best mathematician though.

The current average speed is 53 mph, assuming eight hours. To get a seven-hour trip, you'll have to increase average speed to 61.6 mph. You still have the eight stops on the LSL (11 stops on Empire Service trains) between Buffalo and NYP to deal with.

Just for curiosity's sake, here are the timetables of the NYC's 20th Century Limited from 1938, 1956 and 1967. Note that the average speed, even for the 1967 journeys (with eight intermediate stations), is above 60 mph; only the 1938 train stopped in Buffalo, and it took 7 hours 25 minutes to get there, with only three intermediate stops (an average speed of 58.77 mph).

Actually, #25 (and #26) stopped at Harmon [engine change], Albany, Syracuse. Buffalo, Cleveland / Collinwood, Toledo, and Elkhart for crew changes - either Engine crew, train crew, or both.

Also, the maximum authorized speeds at various points were considerable lower than those of today.

MCHammer wrote:Makes sense to actually move things along and fix the bottlenecks. I am sure CSX would not approve of a purchase of the corridor due to protection of their interest. If a dedicated Albany-NYC line possibility opens up, it would not be worth upgrading Ploughskeepe-Albany. Albany-Schenectady would be worth the purchase since that would be a required connection to Montreal along with Buffalo, hopefully in the future to Toronto since it is just outside the 500 mile range from NYC by rail.

Is the West Shore ROW intact at all from Albany west?

The West Shore only ran south from albany, not westward.

From Selkirk Yard to rotterdam Jct. the WS is the CSX mainline. West of RJ, much of it is now an all-purpose trail, closely bordering the NY Thruway to Herkimer. The WS was never good for higher-speeds compared to the mainline, and the r-of-w runs through several small towns. The Utica and Syracuse areas would pose a major problem for any use of the route, and portions of the r-of-w are no longer available. Also, the WS is still an active line around Rochester.

By comparison, the only permanent speed restrictions on the mainline west of West Albany to Syracuse were the curves at Schenectady, Tribes Hill, and Big Nose.