New Superliners

Why not go all single level. Or a split level with a Low level section for boarding and wheelchairs etc

Standardization is the key. i think sieamans is the burst option. It would be interesting to see there take on a full service diner and sleepers for the west coast. Ideally Amtrak should just add to the viewliner order and get sleepers and diners for west coast long distance fleet. Seimans fills the coach order and we move on.

David Benton wrote:Why not go all single level. Or a split level with a Low level section for boarding and wheelchairs etc

Because bi-levels are so much more efficient in every way . . . hold more people, better crew/guest ratio, shorter consists, easier, faster and safer low-floor boarding . . . and they offer a better view too. Efficiency = cost savings.

The Superliner diner and lounges are such an impressive piece of equipment. The only thing that surpasses the Superliner fleet are the luxurious Ultradomes which are in a class of their own. Don't believe Amtrak every considered that option. They are even higher than Superliners and still don't offer pass-through at both levels although they could be designed that way I guess.

The Sante Fe hi-level design was revolutionary and that concept is still the most efficient use of space in a rail car (leaving the Ultradome out of the equation). At least until the Talgo 22 concept came along . . .

Bi-levels have big problems for ADA , its ok to park a disabled person at a spot for short commuter haul, but doing so on long distance trains is just unacceptable.
Disabled is more than just a wheelchair or walker and basically entire train needs to be accessible, or have attendant that can fetch stuff like food etc .

DutchRailnut wrote:Bi-levels have big problems for ADA , its ok to park a disabled person at a spot for short commuter haul, but doing so on long distance trains is just unacceptable.
Disabled is more than just a wheelchair or walker and basically entire train needs to be accessible, or have attendant that can fetch stuff like food etc .

What Amtrak LD train is entirely accessible? Where are they going? Can't fit down the coach or sleeper aisles. Can't fit through the diner. There's no place to go except between ONE ADA sleeper room in the first Viewliner and one table in the dining car that is immediately in front of it. That's it. The entire train is not accessible.

The ADA room in the Superliner is a pretty comfortable way to travel.

those are old cars and largely grandfathered on rules, any new cars must comply with later regulations.

Another option that hasn't been mentioned is Stadler Rail. They are currently building new, FRA compliant double deck coaches for the Rocky Mountaineer. While there are probably higher than Amtrak would want, body styles can be modified.

Honestly though, if Amtrak is looking to place a big enough order, it might just make sense to procure a new design.

Or have Alstom make them, like they made the Surfliners and Cali Cars. AFAIK they aren’t grandfathered in any major way.

As I was arriving at Chicago Union Station yesterday, there was a consist of Charger-SL-SL-SL-Charger on a parallel track

If you think the only use for the Superliner fleet is LD, think again.

DutchRailnut wrote:those are old cars and largely grandfathered on rules, any new cars must comply with later regulations.

Wheelchair lifts?

trainbrain wrote:They just bought a bunch of new Viewliners for service in and out of Penn. There's no reason to have the Superliner replacement fit in there. Amtrak looked at one point looked at going to bi-level cars for the NEC but decided against it. The only current design that can fit everywhere it needs to is Bombardier's Multilevel. While great for commuter service, there are two things that they didn't like with regard to using an NEC compatible bi-level design for intercity service.

One is that there isn't enough room for luggage. Only the upper level has racks and they aren't tall enough to fit most suitcases. There's no way to add them on the lower level. By the time you removed enough seats to add luggage towers you'd may as well have just gotten single levels with properly sized racks and seats along the entire length of the car.

The other reason is ease or lack thereof when it comes to moving about the train. In commuter service one rarely needs to move between cars because there is no café car and you aren't on the train for very long so you stay in your seat. On that design, you have to go up and down each and every time you pass through a car. The current Superliners are designed with the passages between cars on the upper level so that this isn't a problem, but anything that can use high level platforms must have those mid levels at either end which are at the height of single level cars. The only place in the entire country with high level platforms on mainline rail is the Northeast.

I think that by "entire system" they meant anything non-NEC since the majority of the LD trains don't go to Penn.

Good points, and don't forget Kawasaki.

If you gave me a bit with a drafting board and the plans for a generic 14’ 6” multilevel (BBD, Rotem, CRRC, etc), I bet I could design one with high-level passages*, 48” boarding at end vestibules, and 8” boarding in the center. Wheelchair lifts too, one per side, stopping at top floor/platform/bottom floor. It’d be up to the engineers to make it FRA-compliant re: crush strength, and to shoehorn in all the necessary systems like fresh, gray, and brown water tanks.

Not that they’d be worth much, but I’d be more than happy to gift said plans to Amtrak Mechanical.

*by high-level I mean about 78” above rail, not the full Superliner height pass-through

None of the other forms of public long haul transit require full access to the entire vehicle - a wheelchair isn't rolling down the aisle of a greyhound bus to the bathroom, nor is it doing so on an airplane (though it would be excellent if such requirements were enacted, 2x1 seating on buses and 3x2 seating on 737s due to increased aisle width requirements would be godly). To impose such a requirement on rail without mandating a similar one for the other two forms is rather unfair.

That said, if a Superliner III absolutely must have such capability, put 2 H-rooms in the lower level, replace one "column" of roomettes with a lift*, and make sure the non-bedroom side of the sleeper is the one adjacent to the diner car. The dining car aisle is already wide enough that passthrough to the SSL would be do-able. Coach is even easier to stuff a lift in, you would lose 4 lower level and 4 upper level seats. The result would render the important parts of the train accessible.

*By lift I'm not talking full blown elevator, just something small and utilitarian.

This is the floorplan of the new Stadler Rocky Mountaineer "Ultradomes". You can see that there is a lift between levels. There is a wheel chair accessible table in the dining room on the lower level and an ADA restroom. I don't see a place for a wheelchair on the upper level so I guess the person just stays in the chair on the lift.

There doesn't appear to be outside access to the lift, so a portable platform lift must be used to board the open platform at the rear.

Of course there aren't any sleeper versions of this architecture although Colorado Railcar did have a mock-up that never hit the rails.

This product would make an incredible long distance Amtrak car and it could have the unique feature of having two pass-throughs - one on each level. That would make it the most efficient use of space ever in a railcar literally doubling the capacity of any existing single-level equipment.
Interestingly, the wheelchair person is going to throw off their dining arrangements. There are exactly enough dining room seats to have two dinner seatings - 72 coach seats / 36 dining room seats.

Here's the full article:

http://railcolornews.com/2018/02/25/ca- ... untaineer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e96f7. ... m0816e.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That car has only the lower level "Pass Thru" from the construction pics in the article,this is a 2nd gen car,as at least a few of the original build are in service,already
Rapido did a custom run of the 1st gen car in HO,only available from the Rocky Mountaineer store at their facility in Vancouver,or on board the train.