NEC All Station Stop Service

Rockingham Racer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:41 pm

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:19 pm IMHO, as commuter service grows and expands on the NEC, I'd imagine that Amtrak would want to CUT stops. Why they haven't yet on the Hartford Line, I don't know.

Following that logic, then, stops that could be cut by Amtrak [because they are served by commuter rail] could be:

New Rochelle
Bridgeport
Old Saybrook
Metropark
New Brunswick
Princeton Jct
Newark, DE
Aberdeen

Other stops are also served by commuter rail but should remain either because they are major stops, are at an airport, or are a connection point.


Just musing here.

RR:

Take note that each station on this list has a vastly different amount of commuter train services.
New Rochelle and Bridgeport have frequent MNCR New Haven Line service.
Old Saybrook has the more limited SLE service - with few trains east to NLC.
Metropark, New Brunswick and Princeton Junction have frequent NJT NEC service in both directions.
Aberdeen has limited MARC peak hours weekday only service to BAL and WAS.

This is definitely not a "one size fits all" approach for any possible Amtrak station cutbacks.
The level of alternate commuter service has to be considered before a stop is discontinued.

MACTRAXX

With New Brunswick and Princeton Junction, the trains which stop there are timed to allow travel to the south without a connection in Trenton, not to provide commuters a more expensive alternative to New Jersey Transit. So they are not served by commuter rail (at least, not with the same purpose).
Likewise, few people take the train from Metropark to New York or Trenton. Metropark (like BWI, Stamford and New Rochelle, Route 128, and New Carrolton) is an essential station for travelers coming from anywhere in the relevant suburbs traveling to a non-adjacent city, and these stations do a huge amount of business. (Metropark is also the location of a large enough office park that it is a business travel destination in its own right, like Stamford.)

Aberdeen is a pretty important stop. It is a growing community. The fact that where it sits and presently has limited Amtrak service makes people who are heading to NYP and beyond to drive further north to Wilmington when catching a train. Aberdeen serves nearby towns like Bel Air and many of the northeastern suburbs of Baltimore, easy access on Rt. 40. Aberdeen serves the proving ground too.

I fully support all stops local service for Amtrak, as slow as it would be. The current schedules make no sense, as there are some station pairs that are difficult or impossible to connect between on one train, and others, like Mystic, that barely get any service. I would make 2 categories of Regionals, basically the intermediate ones that stop at the major cities, and then an all stops local service. The current method of having some trains service one small station and others service another small station is infuriating, as the people going to those smaller stops might want to go to/from another smaller stop and you often can't. Then I'd leave Express and Super Express up to the new Acela fleet.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:25 amI think my point is just because there's a commuter stop doesn't mean Amtrak should stop stopping. Just that they need to rationalize, particularly on the Hartford Line.

Amtrak doesn't stop at most commuter stations on the NEC, they only stop at a handful of the bigger ones, and their current spacing more or less makes sense. A lot of the smaller stations for Amtrak (larger commuter rail stations), like OSB do see quite a bit of traffic. Bridgeport is lacking in rush hour service, but the current track configuration is a total logjam until MN/CDOT builds Barnum Station and/or Devon Transfer. Ideally, they will build both and then most/all Regionals can stop at Barnum, and Bridgeport station will become MN only. MN should offer a free connection between Barnum and Bridgeport for Amtrak riders, all ~4,000 feet of it, it would be mutually beneficial to both railroads.

If anything, there are probably a few areas where Amtrak could add MORE stops, not fewer, like Seacaucus, which is really well located for a giant parking garage to to built, as well as a ton of connectivity to NJT.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:19 pmIMHO, as commuter service grows and expands on the NEC, I'd imagine that Amtrak would want to CUT stops. Why they haven't yet on the Hartford Line, I don't know.

The Hartford Line is an oddball, as the Amtrak/CDOT service is interwoven into one system, even though they have two different types of equipment and are two different entities operating them. The Hartford Line trains also don't have to go hundreds of miles, so they can bear more stops on the way What they should do is get rid of the Amtrak shuttles, and run everything with a fleet of pooled 4-car DMU sets that would offer the same onboard experience for every train, even if they have varying ticketing, crews, and train numbers. Then, Regional service to Springfield, future Inland Route, and the Vermonter would remain purely Amtrak.

Oh, the Shuttles absolutely need to go. I don’t know that I would give all of their slots over to CTRail immediately though, since those are valuable for future Inland Regionals.

Four-car shuttles are a good idea. They could just as easily be 4 Shoreliners (or whichever cars Connecticut can get) + P42 though, until there’s money for a multi-hundred-million dollar equipment acquisition. That’s an area where Amtrak could help broker a deal on equipment, whether owned by NRPC, another agency, or a private company.

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In regards to all-stop service and Secaucus, I’m of two minds there. It’s a major transfer point, yes, but it’s also about 2 miles from NYP. I guess it ought to be a flag stop, it wouldn’t take more than a minute to trade passengers. (Kind of like L’Enfant Plaza in Washington - it’s a more convenient stop for some.)

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:09 pmOh, the Shuttles absolutely need to go. I don’t know that I would give all of their slots over to CTRail immediately though, since those are valuable for future Inland Regionals.

Some day, when I-84 is rebuilt, the Hartford Line can run double-track from New Haven all the way to Springfield, and there won't be any practical capacity constraint. In the meantime, they should unify the operations, with the contingency that CTRail schedules might have to be moved around a bit to accomodate future Regional through-runs. Inland route Regionals would be great, both because they would serve cities that currently aren't as well served, and because I believe they are maxed out on Regionals timetable North of New Haven on the Shore Line due to red tape with the bridge closings.

Four-car shuttles are a good idea. They could just as easily be 4 Shoreliners (or whichever cars Connecticut can get) + P42 though, until there’s money for a multi-hundred-million dollar equipment acquisition. That’s an area where Amtrak could help broker a deal on equipment, whether owned by NRPC, another agency, or a private company.

I'd like to see an order for DMUs for Metro-North, LIRR, and CDOT/Amtrak so that they could get some scale and the things wouldn't cost a freaking fortune. Until then, yes, they could run more cars on the shuttles. Amtrak has ADA-accessible coaches with ADA restrooms so they could run about anything for the other two as long as they can plug into the same HEP/MU/etc cables.

In regards to all-stop service and Secaucus, I’m of two minds there. It’s a major transfer point, yes, but it’s also about 2 miles from NYP. I guess it ought to be a flag stop, it wouldn’t take more than a minute to trade passengers. (Kind of like L’Enfant Plaza in Washington - it’s a more convenient stop for some.)

Seacaucus is an easy sell. It has a ton of transfers to NJT, but even more importantly, there is a giant parking lot that could be turned into a giant parking garage right next to it, and direct access to the NJ Turnpike. It doesn't get much better than that for connections and multi-modal/ park and ride type of operations.

A station in Queens makes sense as well on paper, but putting a station in the middle of CP Harold is sort of idiotic from a railroad operations perspective, so best to just let that be and focus on improvements elsewhere.

CTRailfan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:36 pmI would make 2 categories of Regionals, basically the intermediate ones that stop at the major cities, and then an all stops local service.

I believe that Amtrak intends to run all the Northeast Regionals as "all stops" and take the "major cities" service that you mention and convert all of those trains to Acela.

Basically, if you want to pay a lower fare you'll have to accept the slower schedule. In most cases that's not going to be an issue for passengers who are price sensitive.

Just my read of the tea leaves ...

My mom used to have a family friend who lived in Bel Air. Whenever the Bel Air friend would take Amtrak to NYP, she would drive to Wilmington because of the schedule for Aberdeen. It would be nice to have more trains stop in the smaller towns. Mystic is another example but this is a little more of a destination in summer. People live in Mystic year round.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:09 pm Four-car shuttles are a good idea.

I think with all the new equipment coming that will be the rule and not the exception.

I wouldn't be too surprised if four car shuttles will run on the shuttles after the new equipment enters revenue service. Those Amtrak trains see healthy enough ridership on the SPG Line anyway.

I don't know if a station would ever get built in Sunnyside Queens for Amtrak. I could see MNR and LIRR stopping there. From NYP, one would be able to connect easily to a LIRR or MNR train.
Many of the stops along the NEC that aren't served often by Amtrak trains play important functions. New Brunswick is the epicenter of Middlesex County. There are tons of offices in the Downtown area and probably many people who work in them might do so a few times a week. They may live in other metropolitan areas like Philadelphia and Boston so having more Amtrak options to them will help.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:17 pmI believe that Amtrak intends to run all the Northeast Regionals as "all stops" and take the "major cities" service that you mention and convert all of those trains to Acela.

I'm not quite sure I can imagine every Regional stopping at the Old Saybrooks and Mystics of the world. Maybe the New Londons, Bridgeports, New Rochelles, etc.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:49 pmI don't know if a station would ever get built in Sunnyside Queens for Amtrak. I could see MNR and LIRR stopping there. From NYP, one would be able to connect easily to a LIRR or MNR train.

It would make logical sense for Amtrak to get people going to/from Queens to other, longer distance destinations, but I don't think any station will be built there as it's such a critical choke point for Amtrak and LIRR that stopping trains in a station there eats up several slots worth of capacity, and in incident at such a station could tie up a good chunk of CP Harold during rush hour, which would be no fun for anyone involved.

I don't think we would need every Regional train stopping at Old Saybrook, Mystic, and Westerly. Old Saybrook and Mystic probably fall a little more under the category where while the places are huge, at the same time, there aren't many corporations in the immediate area. The station itself in OSB is sort of a ways from the beach too. Yes, I agree that they should all stop in New Rochelle and Bridgeport. Those towns are considered cities and have many companies where people would probably travel to business meetings. Plus, both stations have easy access to major highways and nearby communities. Bridgeport is the last stop on the Pt. Jefferson ferry and plenty of people who live in the center of Long Island probably use the ferry to connect to Amtrak when heading to Providence and Boston. All regionals should continue to serve New London. That is an important city in Southeastern Connecticut. I have been there many times. There are colleges there and my brother attended one of them-Connecticut College. New London is also another hub for ferries, but this time, not a single route. You have the Block Island Ferries, the Cross Sound Ferries, and the Fishers Island Ferries.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:12 am I don't think we would need every Regional train stopping at Old Saybrook, Mystic, and Westerly. Old Saybrook and Mystic probably fall a little more under the category where while the places are huge, at the same time, there aren't many corporations in the immediate area. The station itself in OSB is sort of a ways from the beach too. Yes, I agree that they should all stop in New Rochelle and Bridgeport. Those towns are considered cities and have many companies where people would probably travel to business meetings. Plus, both stations have easy access to major highways and nearby communities. Bridgeport is the last stop on the Pt. Jefferson ferry and plenty of people who live in the center of Long Island probably use the ferry to connect to Amtrak when heading to Providence and Boston. All regionals should continue to serve New London. That is an important city in Southeastern Connecticut. I have been there many times. There are colleges there and my brother attended one of them-Connecticut College. New London is also another hub for ferries, but this time, not a single route. You have the Block Island Ferries, the Cross Sound Ferries, and the Fishers Island Ferries.

I'd still keep two levels of service, all stops local and sort of local that would skip the Old Saybrooks, Mystics, and Westerlys of the world. What is infuriating actually trying to book a train is an Old Saybrook train that doesn't stop at some stations to the south, so it's not an option. Or Mystic only getting a handful of trains a day. They've actually improved Mystic service quite a bit, but there are still some Regionals that are almost all stops local trains that don't stop there. It's a shame, as it's slow trackage anyway, and Mystic is quite walkable in the downtown, and has quite a few attractions that would be easy to Uber to. Otherwise, I'd agree on the New London, New Rochelle, Bridgeport, etc, types of cities. Bridgeport is still dependent on Barnum Station being built just due to the track configuration. Devon Transfer would help too, as Waterbury trains could be terminated without touching the main line, sent to New Haven, or sent to Bridgeport/Stamford.

As far as I know Amtrak has in mind 4 levels of service. The top ones being Acela Express and Acela, with Northeast Regional being the 3rd one. That would leave this all stop service as a brand new category.

If you look earlier up thread there are some pretty clear indications from "those who would know" that Amtrak is in fact considering some significant schedule alterations in order to accommodate the new Acela equipment.

It in fact appears very likely that many of the existing Northeast Regional trains will be converted to Acela service. Amtrak is then left with two choices ... Further reduce service to already minimally served stations or convert many if not all of the remaining conventional trains to "all stops" service. The latter appears to be the more rational choice and is now being wisely marketed as a "new" service.

The changes coming because of the increased number of Acela trainsets are undeniable. There cannot be the same number of regional trains going forward.