Narrow-gauge mass transit?

Are there any cities that have electric narrow-gauge mass transit? Are there any companies that build off-the-shelf narrow-gauge transit vehicles?

I was thinking that narrow-gauge mass transit vehicles might be a cheaper alternative for small US cities looking to invest in mass transit with dedicated ROWs.

Start with Switzerland — land of meter gauge (I'm assuming its meter) trams.

NYCSubway.org Switzerland page

Lots of meter-gauge trams systems in Europe, especially Germany and Switzerland, although some (eg Stuttgart) have been converted to standard in recent years, and all new newly built systems (eg, in France and UK) are standard. In some cases narrow gauge is a necessity because of clearances in the old parts of the cities, Lisbon being an extreme example. But in any case, I'm not sure there's much, if any, real cost saving.

Past US urban systems included Denver and Los Angeles, but their LRT replacements are standard.

Antwerp, Gent and Charleroi in Belgium along with the Coastal Tram (http://www.dekusttram.be) all appear to be narrow gauge, though trams in Brussels use standard.

During the late 19th century, a few narrow guage suburban steam railroads were built in various parts of the country, Boston, Camden NJ, Los Angeles, St. Louis (?)--and others? Some used standard small locomotives; some boxed-in "dummies" to avoid scaring horses, it was said. AFAIK, no one has ever drawn up a list of them. Some probably are little known outside their areas.

The longest lasting and doubtless most important (ultimately electrified, later abandoned, and partly replaced by a rapid transit line) was the Boston Revere Beach and Lynn railroad (3-foot guage).

What about the Revere Beach & Lynn? Wasn't that narrow guage electric rapid tranist-style trolley?

Otto Vondrak wrote:What about the Revere Beach & Lynn? Wasn't that narrow guage electric rapid tranist-style trolley?

BRB&L was a narrow gauge steam road, electrified in the 20's (1928. I believe). The existing cars were converted to electric MU's.

But in any case, I'm not sure there's much, if any, real cost saving.

If one was thinking of tunneling, esp. cut and cover, it might be a little cheaper. This is all broadly hypothetical anyway.

Tokyo runs narrow-gauge subways.

scoopernicus_in_Maine wrote:Are there any cities that have electric narrow-gauge mass transit?

Many of Portland, Oregon's original trolley lines were 3'6" gauge; however today's MAX and Portland Streetcar systems are both standard gauge.

The "Vintage Trolley" that operates on Sundays on the MAX train is patterned after a narrow-gauge car. Two of the original Council Crest cars still exist at the Oregon Electric Railroad Museum, and of those two one of them still has the original narrow-gauge trucks (the other was re-trucked in 1983).

http://www.trainweb.org/oerhs/roster/po ... on_503.htm

From time to time, the old trolley tracks re-appear, as they were often simply paved over. During the recent work on the Broadway Bridge, the original narrow-gauge rails were in clear view as the bridge was re-decked. (I believe that the rails were removed as part of the project.)

A Portland company won a federal contract to develop a "U.S. spec" Streetcar, using the Skoda 10T design currently used by Portland and Tacoma, WA. However I have not heard of any interest in a narrow-gauge Streetcar; likely given that there is simply little cost savings (does it really cost $XX more to dig out another foot and a half of asphalt? Does it cost $XX more for longer ties and/or a wider concrete sleeper? What is the cost difference between a narrow and a wide Streetcar; will a narrow-gauge Streetcar be able to negotiate a tighter curve and/or a steeper grade? What is the decrease in carrying capacity? Can a narrow-gauge streetcar accomodate the necessary electrical and running equipment, HVAC system, etc.?)

I believe Washington DC ‘s street cars were narrow gauge.

Vancouver BC Sky Train is narrow gauge.

westernrrtx wrote:I believe Washington DC ‘s street cars were narrow gauge.

Vancouver BC Sky Train is narrow gauge.

I believe Washington DC was standard gauge. They did use the underground conduit for power in much of the District, but the cars I believe were standard gauge.

Baltimore streetcars were broad gauge, as were/are Philadelphia's trolleys and the Market El.

Poster "octr202" is correct-Washington, DC used standard gauge while Baltimore had a broad gauge system.

The Baltimore system used a unique 5' 4 1/2" gauge, peculiar to Baltimore. The use of this gauge dates back to the horsecar lines that originated in 1859. Back then, many of Baltimore's streets were paved with cobblestones. This gauge allowed carriages to use the horse car right of way and avoid a bumpy ride.

The Baltimore Streetcar Museum is also unique that, due to the gauge, all of the trolleys in the Baltimore collection were used in that city.

http://www.baltimorestreetcar.org

Pennsylvania "broad gauge" was 2 inches narrower at 5' 2 1/2"-5' 2 1/4" in Philadelphia. This was done to preclude electric lines from hauling steam railroad freight cars on city streets. (If they'd only been able to see into the future and visualize the size of the trucks that now travel in many cities...)

Poster "delvyrails" already mentioned the Los Angeles Railway that used a 3' 6" (42") gauge. Another city that made used of the 42" gauge was Denver-check out this link for a number of photos of Denver equipment:

(WARNING-Lots of photos-may take a long time to download.)

http://davesrailpix.com/dentram/dentram.htm

Currently, San Francisco's Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) uses a gauge of 5' 6"-the widest gauge ever used in North American transit systems.

Hi Art,

Correct. The Los Angeles Railway system was narrow gauge. The PCC's and the Hartford cars survive and can be ridden on at the Orange Empire RR museum in Perris, California.

Hi Alan,

Way back in 1974 I found myself in San Diego, CA, in the service of the U.S. Coast Guard courtesy of a very low draft number. Having spent all of my life east of the Ohio border prior to that point, it was a real learning experience. While attending a meeting at the San Diego Model Railroad Club, I was befriended by a gentleman, originally from New Jersey, (who had a son-in-law in the CG) and was a big trolley buff.

One Sunday, he took me the the Orange Empire Railway Museum for a very enjoyable visit-now almost 34 years ago. I still have my ticket and souvineer booklet from the museum. I recall very well the dual gauge trackage at the museum. Narrow gauge PCC's? I had no idea such a thing existed!

Here's a link to the Orange Empire Railway Museum:

http://www.oerm.org

To the LARy narrow gauge trolleys:

http://www.oerm.org/pages/lary.html

And finally, to a narrow gauge PCC-note the dual gauge trackage-

http://www.oerm.org/images/LARy%203100%20night.jpg

Thanks for jogging the ol' memory...