More "E" units on the way...Proto 2K vs. BWAY Limited

Hi everyone,

Just checked out Broadway Limited's website and noticed that they are tooling up to do a re-run of E6, E7 & E8s.

Now mind you, with all the Walthers Proto "name trains" in the last few years that have been released with E7s and E8's, combined with the older Life-Like's Proto 2000s, how many E units can the market handle??

Question 1: Is there really THAT big a market for all these different releases of E-F units by manufacturers?

Question 2: In your opinion, which is the better "E" unit model, Proto 2000 or Broadway Limited?

They both look good beside each other, but Broadway Ltd/QSI sound decoders drive me nutty when trying to program proper
engine #'s,even with Decoder PRO(JRMI).
LifeLike/Walters P2K's have an easy to maintain clone (Athearn) drive that is smooth as silk when running.
It's a 60/40% split.

It may fall to RR specific details(and who's got the better sound decoder) to find a "winner"!!

First, I can only speak intelligently on E8's...earlier ones are not my forte. Nobody has ever made an E8 on par with the Genesis F units. In terms of carbody curves, windshields, nose contours, etc., the P2K unit is so far off that I can't bring myself to actually do a kitbash project with it. If I'm going to put the effort into making a detailed replica of a specific prototype, I want to start with a good base model, and the P2K model isn't it. BLI's unit is much closer on dimensions, with the exception of the lower headlight looking a little crude. Since I model a road that only used the lower headlight, it's these kinds of details that I worry about. BLI units, however, are extremely scarce and very pricey right now.

If you just look at the models in a vacuum, either one probably looks ok, but as soon as you start comparing it to prototype pics the mistakes become much more obvious. And unlike the E7, when Walthers redid the E8, they limited changes to the windshield area, meaning that almost all of the body contours are still wrong on the latest release. If you're not a prototype modeler or rivet counter, you'll probably be quite happy with a P2K unit and the older ones can be had inexpensively. But for me, I've been waiting to see what BLI would do because I can't justify 50-75 hours of work starting with an inaccurate shell. So to your first question I don't really care how big the market is, I'm just dying for an accurate one after all these years.

SlowFreight wrote:First, I can only speak intelligently on E8's...earlier ones are not my forte. Nobody has ever made an E8 on par with the Genesis F units. In terms of carbody curves, windshields, nose contours, etc., the P2K unit is so far off that I can't bring myself to actually do a kitbash project with it. If I'm going to put the effort into making a detailed replica of a specific prototype, I want to start with a good base model, and the P2K model isn't it. BLI's unit is much closer on dimensions, with the exception of the lower headlight looking a little crude. Since I model a road that only used the lower headlight, it's these kinds of details that I worry about. BLI units, however, are extremely scarce and very pricey right now.

If you just look at the models in a vacuum, either one probably looks ok, but as soon as you start comparing it to prototype pics the mistakes become much more obvious. And unlike the E7, when Walthers redid the E8, they limited changes to the windshield area, meaning that almost all of the body contours are still wrong on the latest release. If you're not a prototype modeler or rivet counter, you'll probably be quite happy with a P2K unit and the older ones can be had inexpensively. But for me, I've been waiting to see what BLI would do because I can't justify 50-75 hours of work starting with an inaccurate shell. So to your first question I don't really care how big the market is, I'm just dying for an accurate one after all these years.

What precisely are the flaws? I am no rivet counter, but I'm close. I have recently acquired an older P2K E8 for a project, but I'm not sure I can detect the issue.

Look at a photo of the rear of a real E unit. Look at the P2K shell. The roof curve is all off. With that being wrong, the windshield contours are automatically wrong. Add to that the nose contours being off as well. Somewhere on atlasrr, somebody posted side-by-side comparisons of the different HO manufacturers so you can see it more clearly. Some folks use the P1K F3 cab/nose to replace the P2K, and while the nose is closer the roof contour is still wrong.

I think I found the thread you were referring too:

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=68716

So we are now calling the Highliner model the "gold standard"? I certainly do not disagree with you, there are clearly differences between the Proto engine on the left and the Highliner on the right. However I must admit that had you not pointed this out, I would never have noticed this! I think that this discepancy is not that noticeable, that is unless you sit these two engines side-by-side, but obviously this is my opinion. Having said that however, if I'm spending $180 for a brand new Proto E8 (DC version), then I expect that model to be perfect! If one model manufacturer can make a perfect model of an E or F unit, then they all should be able to do it, no? $180 is a lot of my hard earned money to spend on something that has flaws.

Regarding the question of whether the market can bare all the different releases of E units, I have to ask, why does every release have to be only of railroads that were original owners and in as-delivered paint schemes??? How about producing (besides an accurate model) a release with secondary owners and/or later paint schemes? Later paint schemes like B&O in solid blue w/ yellow pilot or Rock Island in the late red and yellow colors w/ large lettering. Or secondary owners like Burlington Northern, Seaboard Coast Line and even.... Penn Central (gasp!). Walthers has previously produced passenger cars for all these railroads (although the BN units ran mostly in commuter service), what is one supposed to use to pull these accumulated passenger cars with? How great would it be to have a string of off-the-shelf Walthers or Kato Rock Island bi-level commuter cars pulled by a matching E unit?

<sigh>

It took until about 4 years ago before manufacturers (in this case Walthers and Atlas) realized that locomotives have second and third owners. Those two companies did short line and regional paint schemes on some basic stuff like 4-axle Centurys and GP7/9s, and you can't find 'em anywhere now at any price. People actually eat this stuff up, but since manufactuers do no market research beyond deciding what they personally like, you won't see it this time either.

Haven't some of these first- and second-generation units spent more time painted for second and third owners than they ever did for first owners? I give up.

Only Amtrak and some of the commuter operating authorties were 2nd/3rd owners of E-8's/E-9's.
A few tourist lines have E-units along with some museums, but are "mounted and stuffed" for display.

Oh really? So where does that leave Burlington Northern, Erie Lackawanna, Rock Island, or SCL? I suspect that there were others before we consider Conrail, PC, or indeed the dreaded passenger operators.

Backshophoss wrote:Only Amtrak and some of the commuter operating authorties were 2nd/3rd owners of E-8's/E-9's.
A few tourist lines have E-units along with some museums, but are "mounted and stuffed" for display.

Well, you're leaving out the Penn Central, but that sounds about right. As far as original owners go, Proto has pretty much covered all of them.


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Slowfreight is right that Conrail did retain some of it's E8s, but most went to NJ DOT, or were retired before the end of 1976. There were a few interesting units, such as #4014, an EL Patch, #4256, an all blue but CR patched unit, and #4022, a fully Conrail E-unit.

Even though they were technically still conrail units, all of these were run as if they belonged to NJ DOT, with #4022 being used for the original OCS train. A few other E8s were found in chicago commuter service, but that was about it. E8s remaining after 1976 were quickly retired, and by late 1980, only #4022 remained (#4020 and #4021 of OCS fame were actually purchased from Amtrak in 1983).

As I understand it, the last E8s were #4014, 4256, and 4063 (black with CRs) in November 1980.

Still, I bet there is a market for the Conrail and NJ DOT E8s, as well as the Penn Central units. Neither paint schemes are that bad, and they could work with coaches from multiple railroads (GN, BN, PC, SCL, ATSF, and others that were placed in NJ DOT commuter service).

Consider mergers of orignal owners still orignal owner of unit,granted under a "new" name.
"True" 2nd/3rd owners either bought the unit out right(Amtrak)or "conveyed" (NJT,NJDOT)when commuter services were spun out
of the orignal operator to commuter operator of the service.

I seem to remember CPR's Es having been handed over to VIA at some point. Rapido did some of the steam-heated VIA cars while Walthers did some HEP cars as well as the Super Dome.

Backshophoss wrote:Consider mergers of orignal owners still orignal owner of unit,granted under a "new" name.
"True" 2nd/3rd owners either bought the unit out right(Amtrak)or "conveyed" (NJT,NJDOT)when commuter services were spun out
of the orignal operator to commuter operator of the service.

Fine, but our point was that manufacturers only release the as-built paint schemes, making them worthless to the many of us who don't model 1955.

SlowFreight wrote:

Backshophoss wrote:Consider mergers of orignal owners still orignal owner of unit,granted under a "new" name.
"True" 2nd/3rd owners either bought the unit out right(Amtrak)or "conveyed" (NJT,NJDOT)when commuter services were spun out
of the orignal operator to commuter operator of the service.

Fine, but our point was that manufacturers only release the as-built paint schemes, making them worthless to the many of us who don't model 1955.

This has always frustrated me with the hobby. Everything is either Transiton Era or Modern Day. If I didn't know any better, I would assume that EVERYONE modeled a small rural/suburban town in the middle of nowhere during the 1950s, or some industrial park in the current day. At least, thats the feeling I get reading RMC and Model Railroader.

To be fair, even the modern day can be difficult. There are not a lot of really "modern" looking structure kits. Oh sure, some olders structures can definitely pass as viable, but you don't see many glass-sided office building kits. Almost all figures are 1950s people.

Is that what the market really demands, or is there a lot of bias in the hobby these days?