Metrolink Crash in Chatsworth, CA - 9/12/08

CTC wrote:I'm on the East coast and am unfamiliar with the track and signal layout. Does anyone have a drawing they can post on this site?

This youtube video shows the stretch of track where the accident occurred. The video begins just north of the Chatsworth station where the line goes from two tracks to one track (the signal can be seen). The accident happened around the curve to the left, just before where the tracks enter the first short tunnel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNuzZI-7 ... re=related

I'm curious as to the length/capacity of the passing tracks on this line. Is the line double track to the south/west of CP Topanga, or is this merely a passing track/siding? Also, given the need for increased capacity due to Metrolink service, have addiional passing tracks been added, and are they of sufficient size to accomodate a 5-7,000-foot-long freight? Or do passenger moves sometimes simply "hold the main" during a meet at a short siding with a long freight?

The crash happend right were the 3 containers are in the you tube video.
that is about 30 seconds after passing the signal

as for GCOR rule about electronic devices:

GCOR 1.10 as updated in 2006

Games, Reading, or Electronic Devices
Unless permitted by the railroad, employees on duty, must not:
• Play games.
• Read magazines, newspapers, or other literature not related
to their duties.
or
• Use electronic devices not related to their duties.

Rule 1.10 Games, Reading or Electronic Devices, the
following is added:

Crew members using cell phones/laptop computers while
on duty are governed as follows:

* All crew members are prohibited from using cell phones/
laptop computers when their train or engine is moving.
(Electronic work order reporting devices and handheld PDA
devices are to be considered as laptop computers in the
application of this rule.

* Crew members may use a cell phone when their train or
engine is stopped provided its use does not interfere with
required duties such as train inpections or switching
activities.

* If necessary for conductors to report work using a cell
phone, this must be done while the train or engine is
stopped.

Exception: Crew members of passenger trains may use a
cell phone or PDA device for business purposes while the
train is moving provided they are not in the controlling unit or
the cab room of the controlling cab car.

When the conductor heals: Did he give two to go at the station with a stop signal visible from the platform?

Passaic River Rat wrote:When the conductor heals: Did he give two to go at the station with a stop signal visible from the platform?

And you know that a stop signal was visible from the platform?

Did the conductor give the head end two at the last station? What if he did, so what? Is that supposed to mean, 'Go through the stop signal up ahead' or 'Everybody's off, I'm closing the doors'?

My question would be why did he gave two to go , if engineer did not call signal before the platform ??
The signal before platform should have displayed approach.
That signal based on call recieved at previous signal (advance approach)

from Station to CP point is about 3/4 mile no need to hold train for red.

How about we all just stop speculating and let the NTSB do there job and we will find out when the findings are released. No reason to persicute the Metrolink train crew without knowing all the facts, in which we dont know. We know something went terribly wrong and thats it.

Tommy Meehan wrote:Did the conductor give the head end two at the last station? What if he did, so what? Is that supposed to mean, 'Go through the stop signal up ahead' or 'Everybody's off, I'm closing the doors'?

We have a rule on NJT about the Conductor giving the engineer two to go when stopped at a Stop Signal, when its visible from the platform. That's so the engineer, if he isn't paying attention, doesn't just leave the station and go through the signal. I don't know if this rule exists on CalTrans.

I'm sure there was an incident that caused that rule to be put in place but do you think it's a good rule? If your wife gets in the car and says 'Okay honey I'm in," and you pull out into traffic without looking and get hit....she's partly to blame?

An engineer goes through a red signal and collides with an oncoming train, what could be simpler? Instead, it's the kids, the signals, the dispatcher, the conductor.....

Before all the media starts making PTS out to be the thing that could have prevented this accident from happening, lets think about this....

How close is the home signal to the actual switch?

The PTS would of some sort or another put the train in emergency or stop the train AFTER going by the signal. Chances are, the switch is close enough to the signal that the Metrolink train would still have been fouling the switch and would have been struck by the UP train, just at a lessor speed - yes, in theory the death/injuries/damage would be less, but an accident would still happen, more than likely.

Cab signals would have helped, but not prevented the accident.

Cab signals/Automatic Train Control/Automatic Train Stop would have shown an appraoch or restricting in the engineers cab coming up to the stop signal. That would have restricted the engineer to at maximum 30mph, with a Restricting restricing him to either 15 or 20mph.

That is of course, if ATC is installed as well - ATC enforces a maximum speed allowed for what ever signal is received in the cab signal system. ATS (Auto Train stop) will stop the train if the engineer doesn't acknowledge the change in the cab signal. It does NOT enforce speed. A PTS would stop the train if it ran the signal. (but possibly too late because of fouling the main line switch)

You can still go by a stop signal with ATC/ATS at speeds up to 20mph.

Other questions - are the engineers required to call out the signals that could be leading up to a stop signal (bacially other than "clears" of whatever sort) - and is the conductor required to repeat it? If so, did the engineer do that, did the conductor repeat it back? If not, why not? (but that could probably never be answered because the Metrolink Eng is dead)

Could the Conductor see the signal from the platform??? I thought I remembered reading that the track was tangent and was visible from teh station, but I don't remember where I saw that.

Why did he give 2 to go, or permission to leave the station if the signal was visible?

Seems like a lot of things came together to cause this accident, and like any major accident a LOT of things had to come together, and unfortanely, they did in this instance........

Passaic River Rat wrote:When the conductor heals: Did he give two to go at the station with a stop signal visible from the platform?

There has been nothing mentioned here to suggest that the home signal was visible from the station. Using Google Earth, it is over one mile and a fifty foot climb from the station to the home signal. While the grade appears to be constant and the track straignt, I don't think you can assume the signal could be seen from the platform, particularly in daylight.

DutchRailnut wrote:* Crew members may use a cell phone when their train or
engine is stopped provided its use does not interfere with
required duties such as train inpections or switching
activities.

From what I understand, the crash took place minutes after it's departure from Chatsworth station. Didn't the texting take place mintues before the crash as well? If the texting took place while the train was sitting in the station, then it played no part in the crash. This is why I don't like rumors and speculations. People just need to wait for the NTSB to do their investigation instead of coming up with our own conclusions without all the facts. There is some pretty nasty stuff going around Youtube right now with people throwing all the blame on Nick Williams and calling him a murderer. I fear this has caused discouragement among him and his fellow railfans as they have now started removing their videos and deleting their accounts. Way too unneccesary and harsh.

Jtgshu wrote: Other questions - are the engineers required to call out the signals that could be leading up to a stop signal (bacially other than "clears" of whatever sort) - and is the conductor required to repeat it? If so, did the engineer do that, did the conductor repeat it back? If not, why not? (but that could probably never be answered because the Metrolink Eng is dead)

Could the Conductor see the signal from the platform??? I thought I remembered reading that the track was tangent and was visible from teh station, but I don't remember where I saw that.

Why did he give 2 to go, or permission to leave the station if the signal was visible?

Seems like a lot of things came together to cause this accident, and like any major accident a LOT of things had to come together, and unfortanely, they did in this instance........

I was thinking the same thing about the signal calling, I believe they do call back singnals on the west coast, I've herd it done in 1 of my Pacific surfliner videos... I'm thinking the NTSB can check the radio tapes since they are recorded and possibly tell if anything was called back to the conductor etc etc. If the next signal was a home signal and the train was DIB maybe the engineer possibly forgot that he was on an approach which is why I almost make it a habit to remind the hoggers that we are running on an approach at a DIB station.

Ive seen that kid. He kind of stays out of the way. Seen him ask alot of questions. Shame their blaming him for a murder.