March 1 new fares and ticket policies are crazy!

Sounds like MN is believing in eliminating ticket agents. I was speaking to this man on a NJT bus about possibly installing tvm machines at all stations, especially the ones that are served my SEC. That way it would be easior to purchase a ticket lets say from Upper Montclair to Pt. Jervis. Lots of the time, transit conductors seem to not know what they are doing even though they should. Having a ticket in hand on a train can reduce time in terms of the conductor collecting the ticket with money. MN does a good job with their machines at the stations even though not all stations have it.

What needs to happen like Otto suggested is the filing of a complaint. There are a vast majority of people who do not agree with the policy of the MTA and one of the members made an excellent analogy of comparing the MTA to an under disciplined child.

Bottom line, commuters have the power but we are too concerned about looking out for ourselves to do what may be necessary to get the MTA to change its ways. Will boycotts work like they did in the past? Probably not, but if commuters banned together and made some sacrifices to "teach the MTA a lesson" (that is, appreciate your customers/patrons and don't take them for granted) the MTA will re-evaluate itself, give things more thought and make better decisions.

Hopefully it will never have to come to that but the issue with the MTA comes down to extremely poor management at the very highest levels of the organization and politics. You'll never see someone who has had experience as a commuter or employee of any part of the MTA divisions in a high management position. Those responsible for the fare hike (INCLUDING Governor Pataki) don't use the subways, trains or buses and they have unlimited access to all of these systems anyway. There's no genuine connection or understanding of what the patrons experience by management and as long as this persists, we will continue to see annual fare hikes and possible service cuts and even poorer service outside of the hard work by Engineers and conductors onboard who continually try to make each day's commute a safe and enjoyable one.

Nothing irks me more than the bureaucratic nonsense that takes place nowadays.

The main idiocy of this appears to be PEAK fares in the REVERSE PEAK direction, without the PEAK service to warrant it. This will just crowd up Route 100, the Bronx Parkway,a nd I-95, with riders who are fed up, not with the fare increase, but no service increases to show for it. As for the $4.75-$5.50 service charge, that is pretty much in line with New Jersey Transit's $5 surcharge, and there, every station, except a few on the far west of the Raritan and Boonton, which only get 4 or 5 trains on weekdays, and none on weekends, has them. Automation is the way.

Charge reverse peak if you want, but provide the peak service!

The reverse peak fare is the one i don't understand, everything else i agree with.

so far the LIRR does not follow the same practice with regard to peak fares on eastbound AM trains. its only Metro-North.

AMoreira81 wrote:
Charge reverse peak if you want, but provide the peak service!

Impossible -- not enough equipment to go around (especially on the NH line), and even if there were, there isn't enough capacity on the tracks/stations.

And most importantly, there even if peak service could be met, there is no need for it, hence, no need to charge peak fares.

AMoreira81 wrote:The main idiocy of this appears to be PEAK fares in the REVERSE PEAK direction, without the PEAK service to warrant it. This will just crowd up Route 100, the Bronx Parkway,a nd I-95, with riders who are fed up, not with the fare increase, but no service increases to show for it. As for the $4.75-$5.50 service charge, that is pretty much in line with New Jersey Transit's $5 surcharge, and there, every station, except a few on the far west of the Raritan and Boonton, which only get 4 or 5 trains on weekdays, and none on weekends, has them. Automation is the way.

Charge reverse peak if you want, but provide the peak service!

Peak fares are not for the purpose of paying for the additional trains. It is because demand is higher at that time of day, and if you have ever taken any economics class, the first thing they told you was that price rises with demand. If adding more trains is not going to bring in any more passengers, and the current amount of trains has the capacity for everyone that wants to travel then, then there is no reason for them to add more trains. If these reverse peak trains were standing room only, I would agree that it is not fair to raise fares without adding trains. So far, no one has made any comments about these trains being overcrowded.

Just for your information, there is a section of New York State Law, called the Railroad Law. It is book 48 of the Consolidated Laws of New York State. It governs railroad operations in New York State. Section 58 of that law concerns itself with surcharges when paying fares on the train. Please read it and enjoy. The Section 58 dates back to the 1920's and has never been updated. I'm sure the LIRR and MN will claim it doesn't apply to them, but are they not companies operating a railroad?

§ 58. Excess charge when fare paid on cars. It shall be lawful for any
company owning or operating a steam railroad in this state, to demand
and collect an excess charge of ten cents over the regular or
established rate of fare, from any passenger who pays fare in the car in
which he may have taken passage, except where such passage is wholly
within the limits of any incorporated city in this state, provided,
however, that it shall be the duty of such company to give to any
passenger paying such excess a receipt or other evidence of such
payment, which shall legibly state that it entitles the holder thereof
to have such excess charge refunded, upon the delivery of the same at
any ticket office of said company, upon the line of their railroad, and
said company shall refund the same upon demand; provided, however, that
it shall be unlawful for any company owning or operating a railroad
whether operated by steam, electricity or other motor power to demand or
collect any excess charge from any passenger taking passage from a
station or stopping place where tickets can not be purchased during half
an hour previous to the schedule time for the departure of said train,
or car on which such passengers take passage.

I wonder if the MTA is a "company" as defined by the law, rather than an "authority of government"?

The NY State Bridge Authority has a dismissal in case law for a claim brought after the NYSBA took over the previously private Bear Mountain Bridge. Prior claims had been allowed, but the claims post-takeover were dismissed.

That's an issue in the litigation over the Staten Island ferry crash too.

I'm not a lawyer, but the MTA is considered an instrumentality of the State of New York. While it is, in fact, a public benefit corporation, it is considered a part of the state government.

Also, LIRR & MNR fares and fare policies are set in the tariff document, which (I believe) is adopted as a form of state law. I know that it is filed in Albany as an official state document.

My guess (and only a court could say for sure, if it hasn't already) is that this law probably doesn't apply to the state itself (MTA). And knowing how many gadfly lawyers have tried to beat the MTA on fare issues over the past 35 years, I'm sure it's already been tested in court.

Jim

As far as being a public benefit corporation, ie public authority, it is still bound by state law. The still have to pay even some local taxes. The MTA is a public authority but the two railroads are still companies. The MTA acts as a conduit for funds to these two railroads. The employees of the two railroads are NOT public employees although the railroad would like to tell you that they are. The are not bound by the Taylor Law.

Actually, a tariff is just a document that any public service company (telephone, electric, cable, etc.) must file with the state. The statute in question is so old that I doubt there are too many people who know it exists. Until recent years the amount of the surcharge was so small and it would be returned if the customer demanded it pursuant to the guidelines set forth in the statute. It wasn't until MTA days that they would not give the money back; in fact in the beginning of Metro North, you could still get the money back by writing to customer service in New Haven. Don't think too many people went that route. Now however there are cases where the surcharge is more than the fare itself. Don't think you can even get the money back when the ticket vending machines are out of order, which happens with quite some regularity.

If the ticket vending machines are out of order, THEY WILL REFUND THE DIFFERENCE between the onboard fare and the station fare.

I know this for a fact. All a customer has to do is to call the telephone number on the back of the conductor issued receipt, and they will be instructed as to the course to take for the refund.

UpperHarlemLine4ever wrote:The employees of the two railroads are NOT public employees although the railroad would like to tell you that they are. The are not bound by the Taylor Law.

Actually, since we're quoting state law, Chapter 7, Section 201, Paragraph 6(a)(v) of the Civil Service Law in New York Consolidated Law defines a public employer as (among others) "(v) a public authority, commission, or public benefit corporation", and Paragraph 7(a) of the same section defines a public employee as "any person holding a position by appointment or employment in the service of a public employer".

MNR and LIRR employees are state government employees, because the MTA is a public authority, and the railroads are public benefit corporation subsidiaries of the MTA.

The issue with the Taylor law is that the federal Railway Labor Act supercedes the state Taylor law. It's not that it doesn't apply, it's that the Federal law overrules it. If Congress were to pass legislation exempting MNR and LIRR employees from the RLA (which is highly unlikely), then the Taylor Law would most definitely apply.

Jim

I beg to differ with you about being NYS government employees. A person who retires from NYS government or another subdivision of New York State and is receiving a NYS Pension (ie police officer or paid firefighter) then goes to work for Metro North, his or her pension is not diminished. He or she can collect his or her full salary without any reduction in pension benefits. If it were a state job, per se, his or her pension would be reduced. If the same person gets a job with the MTA, his pension is reduced by the amount over $27,500 that he or she earns. The MTA is a NYS Public Authority and therefore an instrumentality of the state of New York but Metro North is not. Belonging to NYSHIP is just a benefit that the MTA opts into and allows the employees of it's subsidiaries to join into.

MNJim both LIRR and MNCR in 1983 were specificaly set up as railroads, not state agencies.
Just because MTA controls both these railroads does not mean MNCR or LIRR are state agencies.
Managment keeps forgetting that as railroads we are federaly controled not state.

We are getting away from the main topic and that is the crazy fares and the surcharges. I stated an old law that applied to railroads and the surcharges for on board purchasing of tickets. A ticket from the Bronx to White Plains is $2.75. With the surcharge, it's $7.00 on board, which is almost 3 times the cost of the base fare. Bit crazy.