Long Distance (LD) Capacity Limitations

Several thoughts:
Yes, I agree, ATL-DC could use a day train, I've argued this for years. It would better leverage the use of the existing staff for example.

And despite the issues, I still wish Amtrak had been able to negotiate something with CAF to get more sleepers built. I'm sure they could have easily made use of them without too much trouble.

And yes, I'm still in favor of a Superliner III fleet. There might be cost savings with an all single-level fleet, but I don't think it's worth it. Amtrak is not Southwest with only 737s, nor does it have to be. That said, pretty much everything inside the cars of single-level and bi-level cars should be non-design specific (i.e. same light switches, same door handles, etc.)

And I do think it's ok to consider some of the western routes are as much "tourism" as they are practical. i.e. if I'm going to Denver from San Francisco, I'll probably fly unless I specifically want the scenery (which I do) and this is in part of the reason for the bi-level fleet, it's a better view. Let's not ruin that.

That said, most of he eastern routes, really can be useful as a transportation alternative. For example, Albany to points west works as an overnight train if one wants. And NY to points south are often almost viable. For example, NYP to Atlanta is almost practical and WAS to ATL is definitely doable overnight for business. Here, single-level trains I think continue to work best because of loading gauges and platform heights.

But overall, if I were king for a day (ok, for half-dozen years or more because of delivery issue) I'd definitely be EXPANDING, not simply replacing all of Amtrak's LD fleet.

How about right here for an Atlanta Amtrak station?

That's in the Buford area with ready access to "perpetual construction zone" 285 or "many Peachtrees" 141. Note the MARTA tracks adjacent. As you can see, there is adequate room for Amtrak to have a house track, which would minimize interference with NS operations and/or allow storage of equipment either for adding cutting cars from 19-20 or for the optimists around here to dream of expanded service at Atlanta.

I've still gotten lost when "Lady Lex" (Sat/Nav) attempting to find the existing Peachtree Station could not sort out the myriad of "Peachtrees". I was collecting our Late member Bill Haithcoat there returning from Wash (he never knew where Hartsfield was, nor did he really want to). Also, on another trip, I was meeting friends at a restaurant in Buckhead - ever so conveniently very near the intersection of Peachtree and Peachtree!!!

Once upon a time, the railroads had inventory. The Pullman Company had inventory. The inventory was kept ready for use.

Clearly, Amtrak learned the airline lesson, not the railroad lesson.

Rcthompson04 said that the Keystones could be shorter. RandallW said that the Pennsylvanian maybe can't be reduced. Both might be true. This is only anecdotal, but I made three round trips west of Philadelphia on Keystones last year, and all six trains had capacity to spare. When I rode the Pennsylvanian in March 2023, it was sold out on a Saturday westbound, and the train was still pretty full at Altoona. Eastbound on a Sunday the Pennsylvanian wasn't sold out, but there were no seats together. Maybe the Pennsylvanian is carrying heavier loads than the Keystones; it is the only train west of Harrisburg.

This evening I was checking for roomettes between Seattle and the Bay Area for May or June. There were very few dates with an available roomette. In the past, the price of a roomette for that trip was roughly equivalent to first class airfare. Today, the few available roomettes are offered for about 3 times the cost of first class airfare. I don't know if the Starlight is running with fewer sleeper or if demand is stronger than in the past, but I'll be flying both legs of that trip.

Literalman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 7:47 pm Rcthompson04 said that the Keystones could be shorter. RandallW said that the Pennsylvanian maybe can't be reduced. Both might be true. This is only anecdotal, but I made three round trips west of Philadelphia on Keystones last year, and all six trains had capacity to spare. When I rode the Pennsylvanian in March 2023, it was sold out on a Saturday westbound, and the train was still pretty full at Altoona. Eastbound on a Sunday the Pennsylvanian wasn't sold out, but there were no seats together. Maybe the Pennsylvanian is carrying heavier loads than the Keystones; it is the only train west of Harrisburg.

It's the only train to Pittsburgh and back, and they book full well in advance around various conventions...

...I better get my travel booked soon...

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:00 pm Once upon a time, the railroads had inventory. The Pullman Company had inventory. The inventory was kept ready for use.

Larger roads had people in the passenger department whose primary job was arranging special moves with such equipment. "You want 16 coaches for a railfan excursion? No problem. Would you like a diner?" Boy Scouts, Rotary Club, Shriners having conventions? Not a problem; how many passengers?

The same situation prevailed for extra sections of regular trains around holidays, and if the regular train had a diner and club car, so did the extra sections.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:08 pm Larger roads had a passenger department whose primary job was arranging special moves with such equipment.

In the final years of private operation, the RFK farewell train turned into a mess with PC.

Railfan excursions, group trips and charters would be good PR for the railroads. Now it is down to some holiday trains such as on CP, and one-off specials at commuter roads (MNCR, NJT holidays for employees only and events with elected officials and dignitaries such as for grand openings of new stations/lines and press tours). Sports teams do arrange private charters on the NEC however.

While the bus industry would gladly offer charters anywhere in North America (with hundreds of carrierts to choose from).

RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:06 am I'm fairly certain that unless additional cars were carried to New Orleans, adding and removing cars in Atlanta would require that Amtrak hire cleaning and light maintenance crews in Atlanta as well as find service and storage facilities and maybe even keep a locomotive in Atlanta for the purpose of pulling that coach.

Atlanta already has light maintenance. As well it must hire some entity to clean the trains when the lay over in ATL during the work window cancellations in Jan and Feb. storage already happens for Amtrak uses the steel siding with 2 stubs. Ground HEP would need to be istalled for various reasons. A loco might be needed but better still would be a rubber tired track mobile. That would save several excursions onto the south main line. Also just one additional mainline switch for a stub track to allow connecting lay over cars to rear of north bound train.

A wild card is if the Crescent splitting at Meridian for FTW / NOL comes about then dropping car(s) at ATL may become moot??

I will note, there's a reason that Amtrak (and pretty much every other industry) to a point has followed the airline model in terms of capacity: airplanes that aren't flying aren't making money. Railroad cards that aren't rolling, aren't making money. It's pretty hard to justify keeping extra cars around unless you're using them all the time, in which case they're no longer extra.

Greg Moore wrote:I'm still in favor of a Superliner III fleet. There might be cost savings with an all single-level fleet, but I don't think it's worth it. Amtrak is not Southwest with only 737s, nor does it have to be.

Just that pesky annoyance of disabled people who can't navigate those stairs or easily roll onto or off of a Superliner car, or old people who shouldn't be...

Yeah, bi-level cars are dead, unless you can build reliable elevators or guarantee some kind of barrier free access end to end for ALL people of ALL abilities. Frankly I'm surprised Amtrak hasn't gotten into trouble already for non-compliance with the spirit of ADA. Despite the mechanical advantage of the Superliner, the future will be single-level.

People keep bringing this up and it's been debunked a number of times.
There's no requirement that 100% of every car needs to be wheelchair accessible. It's simply not practical For example, regardless if you are single-level or bilevel, in sleeper cars, you will never have practical wheelchair access along the length of the car without basically eliminating 1/2 the bedrooms.

The law has allowed and will continue to allow limited wheelchair access to sleepers, single-level or bilevel.
I will note even in coach cars, only fairly narrow wheelchairs will work.
And on airplanes, ask anyone with a wheelchair. Access to anything other than the front row/bulkhead seats is basically impossible.

As for reliable elevators, this is basically a solved problem. It's not like elevators are some sort of brand new, not understood technology.

Yeah, not quite true. Aircraft are required to have to have what's called an aisle chair to let the disabled sit anywhere except an exit row. It's why almost all aisle seats now have moveable armrests.

If you're too wide for the aisle... it doesnt matter as morbid obesity by itself is not a qualifying disability under the ACAA which is the airline version of the ADA....nor does it qualify under the ADA in most cases.

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While true an aisle chair is required, from my discussions with people who use wheelchairs, practically it's a huge pain and they will when possible use the front row seats. Transferring from their wheelchair to the aisle chair and then to their airplane seat and then back again is highly inconvenient and means that in-flight, it may be impossible to make use of the bathroom, whereas, from the front row, there's a greater (even if it's still not 100%) possibility of using the forward bathroom.

So just because something is required or available, doesn't make it necessarily practical. So instead of "basically impossible" I should amend that to say "generally impractical."

Mr. Olesen, don't airlines just routinely upgrade to First those passengers who are morbidly obese?

I once knew a gal, who somehow hung on to age 55 and had to be at 5'5" 350lb plus, who was routinely upgraded flying on United.

Well, I may be overweight but not obese in this life, and with United my "go to airline", the only way I have to keep that curtain Aft of me is to pay for it.