LIRR - Metro-North connections over the Hell Gate Bridge

Move to Westchester, etc.? Can't afford to. Plus we've planted roots on Long Island in Historical societies and the like, and we have family here. Long Island wasn't a 'good' choice but at the time necessary. My then future wife and I had no idea of just how awful LIRR was, especially in diesel country, but it was where she was working.

When the 3rd track opens up, it will not solve the problem of the constantly breaking down switches, signals, locomotives, train doors, M's, etc. It will however make it easier to get around broken down trains, which will help. Beyond that, it's not actually clear whether LIRR will redo any schedules to take good advantage of the additional tracks, even though that's a big reason for it being done. There will be some help also from no longer having to deal with the several at grade crossings. But will actual train speeds improve? For instance, the DM pulled train from PJ to Penn alleged arrival time 7:20AM. For my part of the run, 1:02 to go 40 miles on a train that is capable of what, 75?

Both for ESA and 3rd track, it will be interesting to see what LIRR does in terms of any service improvements (if any). Will the improvements be spread out based on real need or political interference? Reading comments here it's obvious that some of you don't believe that LIRR needs to accommodate riders from farther east - but those who believe that may not understand that the closer you are in the more expensive it tends to be to live. I'm not talking about the Hamptons. In fact I think they get far better service than they should, like how LIRR guts PJ trains for a few days a week to provide better and increased service to the every weekend in good weather drunk spoiled brat parade to the eastern beaches and drinking houses. I'm talking about, on the PJ line, towns of Huntington, Smithtown, and Brookhaven, with piles of workers and students going back and forth daily.

(ADMIN NOTE: New Topic: https://railroad.net/viewtopic.php?f=216&t=171479) In regards to ESA allowing access from LIRR to MN without going via Penn, sure. It might save about 40 minutes a day typically. But for someone in diesel country needing to go to say White Plains, instead of being say, a 6 hour round trip via Penn, LIRR, 2 subways, maybe it's now only 5 1/4 hour round trip. We don't just need the extra capacity of the 3rd track plus ESA, we also need direct connections from LIRR to MN. Imagine, for instance, changing to a train at Jamaica that use the Hellgate Bridge to connect you to points north of the city, or at least a transfer point in the Bronx to each of the MN lines. Right now, lots of Long Islanders have to commute to North of the city, and the only way is by a 3 or 4 AM drive by car, leaving by 2 or 3PM to go home (and even that's really late for heading towards Long Island).

With the abandonment of the Montauk cutoff bridge at Harold, easy access to the Amtrak's Hellgate route was lost.
Turning a train could be done at Hunterspoint or LIC, to head to MN New Haven line
CSX will never allow passenger service on the Bay Ridge secondary to Market tower/CP.
NYAR now controls the lower Montauk Secondary from Jamaica to LIC yard limit.

There's the Port Jeff Ferry to Bridgeport Conn.

Again, we need to be practical. The PJ ferry is great for a family trip to New England, horribly expensive and slow for daily commuting. Since NIMBYism denied us a decent driving AND rail connection to north of the city and New England, one either has an extremely out of normal hour drive or a several hour train commute. If LIRR can connect directly to MN north of the city, and do it intelligently (even if it has to replace a bridge), it could make possible a viable mass transit commute from/to Long Island and north of NYC. Since the need exists and has for years, it needs to be added to LIRR / MN / MTA planning as a needed project. As to the Hellgate Bridge, I'm no expert on all the current and former tracks nearby, but if Amtrak can access it, then it stands to reason that LIRR could, albeit with some construction.

No, people who begin their trip in Pt. Jefferson to NYC want to get to the city as quickly as possible so that ferry is not an option. Even if your train along the Pt. Jefferson Branch doesn't go to Grand Central Terminal, you will still have many options of where to transfer trains. The PJ/BRP ferry is meant for those people heading to New England who live in the center part of the Island.

I'm not the one who suggested the ferry. Again, there are a few important things that us in what LIRR thinks as farm country need. Access to GCT that is no harder than it is for people in electric territory. Easy access to MN lines NORTH of NYC so that one doesn't have to do a triangle commute if they have to work in say White Plains. FYI, my most recent job moved from 2 blocks north of GCT to White Plains. Before that, if ESA were fully accessible to us out 'east' my daily commute would have dropped from 4 hours normally to a bit over 3 hours. That's assuming easy access to a GCT train in bound, from a GCT train outbound. After the job was moved, a direct connection from LIRR to M/N lines north of the city to White Plains would have likely been sort of variable. Driving is not an option.

That's too bad that your job moved to White Plains from East Midtown near GCT. ESA will be great though for people transferring from an LIRR electric train to a MNR train to White Plains and just in general. I attended Mercy College in Dobbs Ferry, NY and there were many fellow students who lived on Long Island. I think many of them often drove from home to college and back but many rode the train too(MNR Hudson Line from either Ardsley on Hudson or Dobbs Ferry to GCT and then get to NYP to the LIRR. I know that when I was attending Mercy College, I did at least one daytrip on the LIRR by taking MNR into GCT and then heading on over to NYP to get LIRR. There are plenty of jobs in White Plains and I'm sure that there are many employees who live in Nassau County, especially the western part who would benefit from using East Side Access. For example, you might have a business executive who lives in Great Neck and works in White Plains. If they still do when ESA opens up, it will be an easy transfer under one building.

ESA is very important to many commuters, but it's not all that's needed. We need trains via the HellGate between LIRR and MN, a line that links up to all MN branches. MTA is a regional commuting authority, but instead it acts as 3 separate competing agencies, each in its one region, but competing for money with each other. We should also have much better connections MN to LIRR AND to NJT, etc. Living in one part of the region, unless at extremes, it should be viable to commute to another part of the region. Right now everything is Manhattan centric, and ends in Manhattan, typically in only one part of the city. But jobs can be anywhere in the region, regardless of where you live, and within reason, should be viable to commute to and from.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 10:08 pm ESA is very important to many commuters, but it's not all that's needed. We need trains via the HellGate between LIRR and MN, a line that links up to all MN branches. MTA is a regional commuting authority, but instead it acts as 3 separate competing agencies, each in its one region, but competing for money with each other. We should also have much better connections MN to LIRR AND to NJT, etc. Living in one part of the region, unless at extremes, it should be viable to commute to another part of the region. Right now everything is Manhattan centric, and ends in Manhattan, typically in only one part of the city. But jobs can be anywhere in the region, regardless of where you live, and within reason, should be viable to commute to and from.

Hence I ask the following question: Could it be possible to utilize and restore existing or former railway stations in Queens or Jersey? For instance, could it be possible for Metro North and Amtrak to terminate trains at a revamped Long Island City, NJT terminating at Jamaica, NJT and Metro North terminating at a restored and elevated Pavonia, Exchange Place and/or Communipaw Terminal, or (this was from a proposal a while ago) have Metro North and LIRR terminate at Secaucus Junction or Newark?

In a perfect transit world all of these ideas would be great projects. But in the real world they are not likely to happen because (A) the cost would be humongous and the funding is not there, and (B) there is currently no public pressure to cause the politicians to allocate funding. We'll be lucky just to see all the current projects under construction and procurement in the NYC area get finished soon.

Holy hell can we please stop with the gripe fest? Either propose actionable solutions, info about why something can or can't be done, or butt out. Enough with the crying already.

NIMBYkiller wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:11 pm Holy hell can we please stop with the gripe fest? Either propose actionable solutions, info about why something can or can't be done, or butt out. Enough with the crying already.

Agreed. We need solutions instead of complaining about delays or poor service.

Anyways, what is the projected date for ESA now that construction is gettin done ahead of schedule due to everyone staying home?

NJT isn't going to terminate at Jamaica. The LIRR Main Line tracks from Jamaica to Harold are used by too many LIRR trains already and we don't know yet about how many additional trains will be running on the Main Line between Jamaica and NYP after ESA opens up. Passengers using NJT trains are better off just switching at NYP to LIRR. That has always been the norm. I have done it plenty of times. I live in NJTland and whenever I need to use LIRR after ESA opens up, I will still switch at NYP as much as possible. MNR will never go to Jersey City. There is no need. It's not that long of a walk from GCT to 33rd Street/Herald Sq Path Terminal. MNR isn't terminating in Queens either. It might stop at a LIRR Sunnyside station if it gets built and that would be great for people who live and work in Sunnyside or surrounding sections.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:38 pm NJT isn't going to terminate at Jamaica. The LIRR Main Line tracks from Jamaica to Harold are used by too many LIRR trains already and we don't know yet about how many additional trains will be running on the Main Line between Jamaica and NYP after ESA opens up. Passengers using NJT trains are better off just switching at NYP to LIRR. That has always been the norm. I have done it plenty of times. I live in NJTland and whenever I need to use LIRR after ESA opens up, I will still switch at NYP as much as possible. MNR will never go to Jersey City. There is no need. It's not that long of a walk from GCT to 33rd Street/Herald Sq Path Terminal. MNR isn't terminating in Queens either. It might stop at a LIRR Sunnyside station if it gets built and that would be great for people who live and work in Sunnyside or surrounding sections.

By Metro North going to Jersey City, I meant for the routes on the west side of the Hudson, such as the Port Jervis Line, terminating at restored and elevated Pavonia, Exchange Place, and/or Communipaw Terminals.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:38 pm NJT isn't going to terminate at Jamaica. The LIRR Main Line tracks from Jamaica to Harold are used by too many LIRR trains already and we don't know yet about how many additional trains will be running on the Main Line between Jamaica and NYP after ESA opens up. Passengers using NJT trains are better off just switching at NYP to LIRR. That has always been the norm. I have done it plenty of times. I live in NJTland and whenever I need to use LIRR after ESA opens up, I will still switch at NYP as much as possible. MNR will never go to Jersey City. There is no need. It's not that long of a walk from GCT to 33rd Street/Herald Sq Path Terminal. MNR isn't terminating in Queens either. It might stop at a LIRR Sunnyside station if it gets built and that would be great for people who live and work in Sunnyside or surrounding sections.

Switching from NJT to LIRR at NYP? Kinda obvious. Of course you're not going to walk to GCT to switch.

I will quibble with walking from GCT to NYP or 33rd/PATH, having done it. It's not easy. If it's raining, cold, both, snowing, I'm not walking, taking a cab, whatever, and now using the NYCT method of the S/7 to the 1/2/3/N/R? Forget it. Being able to transfer at GCT is huge to LIRR. And NJT still won't have access to the East Side, although we're not really talking about that here.

I'd also quibble with MNR going to Jamaica/LIRR. It's not all about Manhattan; an easier commute to the Bronx and North would draw plenty of non-typical commuters by saving even more time, not just to NYP, but to GCT, i.e. NYC. MNRR has a fleet of over 400 M8's with capability to run on both types of DC; what's lacking is an at-grade connection. The Bay Ridge Branch has no connection; instead passing over the main line. There is an abandoned stretch that used to; I think that's the north/east end of the Rockaway branch.

Jamaica capacity is a big issue, though. And it's one Amtrak will have to deal with if they ever get their end of the deal from Penn Access the MTA agreed to.

That's true about the walk from GCT to 33rd Street-Herald Sq Path Station in inclement weather. Yes, having the station in Sunnyside would enable connections to the East Bronx when MNR East Bronx service begins as well as New Rochelle. Eastside Access will still allow travel for when traveling from Long Island to the Central Bronx like Fordham and Botanical Gardens. Those MNR trains serving Fordham and Botanical Gardens are heading to and from Grand Central Terminal. There may be somebody who lives in Mineola who works at Fordham University so any train heading to GCT would be a win win for them.