Limited security on Amtrak trains; lawmakers want more

The model already exists for funding: $5.60 per one way trip added to each ticket.

Using 2019 boardings, that's $500K per day or close to $180M per year.

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eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:39 pm The model already exists for funding: $5.60 per one way trip added to each ticket.

Using 2019 boardings, that's $500K per day or close to $180M per year.

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Especially for the state supported shorter distance services, that might be enough to make them uncompetitive. Commuter rail would become uncompetitive overnight as cost and time savings would be gone.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:39 am

TurningOfTheWheel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 5:19 pm Huh, I wonder why a Republican congressperson from Texas might try to nix one of the key advantages rail travel has over air travel.

Next.

not suspicious , at all.

This screams GOP obsession with immigration. My dad who watches too much FoxNews is convinced the Keystone and Pennsylvanian are being used to smuggle illegals.

Nah, we like immigration as long as its legal, but that's not what this is about.

Not once have I seen a mention of identification checks.

It's about keeping guns and knives off trains and public transportation. It's people going thru a magnetometer and running bags thru a scanner.

I find it curious that few here seem to care about basic security. I can't visit Social Security or the passport agency without going through a magnetometer or bag screening.

I'm willing to wager that none of you who are arguing against the cost or time impact added has ever argued against how the increased cost of environmental policy compliance raises prices on the transportation of consumer goods, or how a "living wage" impacts retail or fast food prices.

So why should you suddenly care about the minimal impact that the increased cost of security would have on a train ticket?

As long as one life is saved, it's worth it, right?...

( disclaimer: all of the above hyperbole is exaggeration intended to show the hypocrisy involved with people questioning policies which negatively impact their own personal interests yet have no problem taking the opposing position when it advances their own personal interests )

Meanwhile.....

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/su ... manhattan/

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eolesen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:43 am I find it curious that few here seem to care about basic security. I can't visit Social Security or the passport agency without going through a magnetometer or bag screening.

It is more fair to say that most here are interested in weighing the risk and reward of these proposals with data rather than emotion or partisan motivation. The risk of violent crime on the rails is quite low, significantly lower than the risk of injury or death you face when driving. Thus few here see much net benefit in these screenings.

There is no way to make the world riskless, lets not be foolish by wasting money on theater when we could instead get higher levels of risk reduction from other uses of taxpayer money or user fees (air quality, traffic accidents, obesity, etc.)

eolesen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:43 am
It's about keeping guns and knives off trains and public transportation. It's people going thru a magnetometer and running bags thru a scanner.

I find it curious that few here seem to care about basic security. I can't visit Social Security or the passport agency without going through a magnetometer or bag screening.

Again, trains are nowhere as near vulnerable as airplanes to attacks from people or objects onboard, and the benefits are limited as a result. If trains and public transport are going to screened, then what about every other aspect of public life? Should supermarkets, restaurants, department stores, post offices, and other aspects of public life that involve crowds of people have mandatory scanners? Should you be prohibited from carrying tools on the subway? You also live in a country with a 2nd amendment and relatively loose gun laws, and unarmed assaults (with fists, kicks, shoves, etc. ) and with everyday objects (tools, canes, etc.) happen as well.

WashingtonPark wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:14 am The vast majority of train assaults don't involve knives or guns. It's people that can't control
themselves using fists or shoving.

MTA Police reports show most assaults are disputes between conductors and passengers on LIRR and Metro-North.

When was the last time a terrorist group hijacked an intercity Amtrak passenger train and threatened to kill everyone?

I think an issue that we have here is the matrix of threat to impact. Even if a nefarious group was to hijack a train...where would they go? They could only really seize the cab and at worst go a couple of miles. Electrics have no fuel to use as a weapon like an airliner on the NE corridor, and the diesel locos could possibly be, but would probably be derailed or intercepted.

The worst you'd be looking at would probably be the 7/7 bombings or the 2004 Madrid bombings or the 1995 Japan Sarin gas attacks to pull from recent memory. But those issues would be better dealt with Counter-Intelligence, securing every station along the NE corridor to halt any transfers, forcing people to go though security checkpoints between say Cornwall Heights and Princeton Junction/Newark Penn Station to pull two closer together stations out of a hat for what appears to be a low probability incident. Or even the proposal to put rolling security checkpoints which...How do you handle 30th Street/Penn Station or any high volume transfer stations? Not to mention the other problem of securing funding for what would appear to be a problem that doesn't exist, for what would be a stupidly high cost which is bonkers considering these platforms are barely even ADA compliant

Looking at a report I dug up from from the DOT: Document Report No: CA/R-96/26 which details every attack on a train across the globe from 1920 to 1997 when the report was made. The report states

Passenger identity verification upon ticket purchase or boarding, even passenger and luggage screening, are possible but not currently utilized by any rail system, and they would probably be considered extreme and unwarranted measures without an immediate and obvious threat. As the accompanying chronology of terrorist attacks shows, long
distance rail systems face a greater threat from derailment caused by sabotage of the rails themselves.

As an armchair bonehead with no background in security, it is my unprofessional opinion that this comes off as an unfunded mandate with the intention of setting an albatross around Amtrak's neck. If this security risk was to the extend as was implied, we would have seen this in Europe. To my knowledge the only station I know is Madrid that even comes close to what is being asked of it.

electricron wrote:When was the last time a terrorist group hijacked an intercity Amtrak passenger train and threatened to kill everyone?

Apparently 2018 https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/wh ... y-21448411

We have seen an onboard attack in Europe. It was thwarted by three US servicemen.

Again, it's not about hijackings. Take any of the movie theater or School type shootings, and put it inside of a train car. It would be absolute Carnage with no way to defend yourself or escape.

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ChesterValley wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:25 am

electricron wrote:When was the last time a terrorist group hijacked an intercity Amtrak passenger train and threatened to kill everyone?

Apparently 2018 https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/wh ... y-21448411

Actually the incident took place in 2017. Reminds me of a boss that told me that there is no price too great to pay for safety. I told him he was right and we should immediately cut the speed of our trains from 65 to 15MPH (restricted speed) because at that speed we could eliminate trespasser strikes and any derailments or track problems would cause little to no problems for the passengers. He said "Are you nuts? Nobody would ride the train." I reminded him that there was no price too great to pay for safety and he gave me a dirty look and took off. Gov. Phil Murphy stated that we wouldn't give up on school or business restrictions until not one person was dying of Covid. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:45 pm Take any of the movie theater or School type shootings, and put it inside of a train car.

Why don't we have security in movie theaters? Only a minuscule portion of schools have security screenings. Why is that?

Over 50,000 American's were killed in auto violence last year. Why aren't we focused first on how we can reduce that number? More frequent and convenient trains are part of that answer.

There is also the question of why this is not considered to be a problem anywhere else in the world (other than HSR service in Spain). Should gun control be part of this discussion?

ChesterValley wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:25 am Even if a nefarious group was to hijack a train...where would they go? They could only really seize the cab and at worst go a couple of miles. Electrics have no fuel to use as a weapon like an airliner on the NE corridor, and the diesel locos could possibly be, but would probably be derailed or intercepted.

The most would be to crash into a stub terminal, much like Silver Streak (1976). But even runaway CSX 8888 was intercepted.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:45 pm Again, it's not about hijackings. Take any of the movie theater or School type shootings, and put it inside of a train car. It would be absolute carnage with no way to defend yourself or escape.

As I mentioned, Merillon Avenue illustrated strength in numbers. A gang of three or five could overpower one
gunman. And if someone is carrying, the results could take a different turn.

There are passenger-accessible emergency brake handles in every car that will dump the air and put the train into emergency braking. Someone is going to pull the handle and stop a hijacked or runaway train.

Maybe it is time for these draconian security measures return to sanity.