Limited Rail Access and Utility for City Residents

I'm curious to know how many of you here live in the city. To those that do, do you find using or getting access to the RRD alot more difficult than it needs to be? There seems to be a lack of stations just outside of Center City that would be really attractive to some neighborhoods and would shave a good deal of time off commutes in or out of the city (such as 8th & Spring Garden, Frankford Junction, etc.)

As we all know, during the '80's and to today SEPTA continues to axe low patronized RRD stations, since alternate routes are available in their place. However, in today's sprawled environment, as some of SEPTA's bus routes prove, many of us are living in the city but commuting to the 'burbs. Unfortunately, most choose the bus, and most are in the lower income bracket which makes the bus more attractive.

Anyone here care to shed some thoughts on this?

I live in the city, but in terms of rail access, I'm an exception. Living in northwest Philly, I can walk to two trains in reasonable time (though one is a much longer walk than the other), so it's the public transportation method of choice for both my wife and me.

With the exception of possibly adding a stop a Frankford Junction, I think the current service is adequate. I live in the city and will ride the bus or subway rather than the regional rails. Why wait 30 minutes or an hour for a train when the bus comes every 10-15 minutes? The only exception is Chestnut Hill, where taking a bus to the subway can be an hour plus ride to Center City or Tempe U where you have a number of trains to choose from.

Back to the Frankford Junction station. Septa should have built a station with a transfer walkway to the EL during the MFL reconstruction. This would be useful for reverse commuters trying to reach Trenton or Bucks County from Frankford, Kensington and Fishtown.

worldtraveler wrote: I think the current service is adequate...{with the exception of possibly adding a stop a Frankford Junction}

Septa should have built a {Frankford Junction} station with a transfer walkway to the EL during the MFL reconstruction.

This would be useful for reverse commuters trying to reach Trenton or
Bucks County from Frankford, Kensington and Fishtown.

I know that SEPTA and NJT can't possibly cooperate,
but wouldn't it make sense from a "help get people where they're going"
to connect to the NJ train passengers from Cherry Hill and Lindenwald to the MFL & Trains as soon as they get across the Delaware rather than run all the way to 30th Street Station so you add an hour?

Hal

I live in west philly and have no complaints about railroad access where I live, but other parts of the city aren't so lucky. I can choose between the R3 or the 34, 13, 11 and 36 trolleys to get me into center city quickly. When the transit division goes on strike, everyone starts using the R3 station at 49th and Chester until they resume service.

SEPTA likes to close stations b/c they can save money on maintaining the station (though they do precious little of that) in lieu of designating them "flag stops". A bunch of stations that were very important in the days of the Reading are less so nowadays which reflects that the people who run the railroad see their main raison d'etre as moving suburbanites into centercity in the morning and out in the evening. Everything else seems to be gravy.

Unfortunately, there is some justification for this mindset though I think it is based on subtle and perhaps unconscious racism. Wayne Junction comes immediately to mind; it has been all but abandoned by SEPTA, the building is in terrible condition and one thinks twice about detraining there. But blocks away are very stable neighborhoods with mixed populations (both racial and economic) who pine for a cleaner or at least neater looking station to take them into town.

The railroad does double duty in some places as transit and as some posters here point out, the frequency of trains needs to reflect that role.

I live in the city (Northeast Philly) and am within reasonable distance from the rails.

The Ryers station of the R8 Fox Chase Line isn't too far walking on a nice day, but I can drive there to (and sometimes am the only person there).

I'm also not too far from the Cheltenham Station, but there is no parking there and it's a bit of a far walk, so 99% of the time I opt for Ryers.

Also, there are 2 bus lines just 1 block from my house, one going to Fern Rock and one going up to Frankford Term. and Torresdale Station, but again I normally opt for the RRD at Ryers.

I used to live in Roxborough. The RR lines aren't very useful unless you are within walking distance of a station, which I wasn't. If the buses were better coordinated with the trains, it might have been a different matter.

I ended up parking at the Ivy Ridge station and taking the train. I've noticed that the commuter parking at Ivy Ridge station is full and spills out into the side streets during the day.

The problem is that SEPTA is slow enough already and adding more stations, especially close-in stops, will make it even slower, which may make some people decide not to take the train. Plus those who get on at a far-away station are paying more than those getting on in the city. You don't want to lose higher-fare passengers to gain lower-fare passengers. The ideal line would have two terminal stops with the train running full along its entire length. To use regional rail trains for a two-mile hop within the city is inefficent.

I live in west philly as well right on the 34. So usually the trolley is my transit of choice but sometimes i will walk 10 min to the 49th street R3 station if i am heading to school at temple. The train talkes roughly the same abount of time as the trolley to subway does so it allows for some variety in my commute. Of course I am also pretty close to 30th street and could walk there if i really had to. I used 30th quite a few times a month wether it is to head to the burbs or catch amtrak to central PA (aka where the parents live). So really the 49th street stop does not help me a whole lot. It would only be really useful if I needed to head out towards Media, but that has yet to happen. It is just as easy to take the trolley to 30th and catch whichever Regional train as it is to take the R3 and transfer (the olnly exception being Media and west trenton on weekday, they still run that pairing correct?). I guess it boils down to the fact that I am not the best example for this post. I am deffinately for flag stops though.

Sean@Temple

Hal wrote: I know that SEPTA and NJT can't possibly cooperate,
but wouldn't it make sense from a "help get people where they're going"
to connect to the NJ train passengers from Cherry Hill and Lindenwald to the MFL & Trains as soon as they get across the Delaware rather than run all the way to 30th Street Station so you add an hour?

Hal

I have thought that the NJT AC Line should stop at North Philly, in addition to, rather than instwead of, 30th street, and the tracks are already there! I think Amtrak may be preventing this from becoming a reality, rather than Septa vs. NJT. Did the AC line ever stop at North Philly or Frankford Junction before? I'm not sure. I'm not sure how much revenue it would add either, because those trains tend to fill up under the current arrangement anyway, and you don't want those passengers to get off because a transfer stop in the middle of bombed out North Philly causes the trip length to increase for about 5 minutes for the sake of no one getting off/on.

You're right about the waste of an hour though. I often transfer my regional rail lines out in the suburbs - using the Fern Rock station or the North Philly-North Broad metroplex as my "Seacaucus" rather than going all the way to Market East to switch trains, which can cause you to miss a train connection. However some people can't go from R8 to R7 at North Philly because it is so, I don't know how to put it, UNMARKED and UNSAFE, let alone trying to careen down Broad Street to catch on of the R5 or R6 trains that also stop there hourly. I really wish they had designed the station like Seacaucus. When you have a train line running other another one, transfer seems like a logical plus. Of course when these stations were built they were competing for passengers rather than accommodating them (Penn Central and Reading companies). Well a lot of good that did, as those companies are no longer around and neither are the number of passengers required to make North Philly a successful transit hub for 4 to 6 different RR lines. Darn shame.

I agree that Septa should make an effort to rebuild the station at North Philadelphia to make a connection to the tracks crossing below. The new lower level connection can replace the North Broad Station of the former Reading Lines. This new transfer center would serve the R1, R2, R3, R5, R6, R7, R8, Amtrak & NJT. Transfers could easily save 15 to 20 minutes from traveling into Center City to transfer. Also, connect this station to the Broad Street Subways buy opening Norhern Subway entrance.

One thing to remember about all of this is that what is now the RRD was established as suburban service of the PRR and Reading Company at a time when city and suburban transit service ( at that time streetcars) was provided by separate private companies. During that era there was almost no coordination between the then PRT ( later PTC), the P&WCT ( later the Red Arrow Lines) and the two railroads. In fact there was a certain degree of antagonism among these entities, espcially where the PRR was concerned. Thus the location of what RR stations existed in the city, including the "main" downtown stations were located where the railroads were interested in locating them, without much consideration given to cordinating with the transit system. This does not explain or excuse SEPTA's actions in closing some of the surviving city stations, but the combined systems, RRD & Transit were not established as a coordinated transit system in the first place.

Justified or not, heavy-rail lines have always been seen as sort of arteries and veins doing "bulk transport", if you will, moving a lot of people fairly quickly over longer distances. The transit lines are more like capillaries that fan out to the smaller regions carrying fewer people on each trip, but to more numerous and more diffuse destinations. It's difficult to serve the entire city with heavy-rail because of the infrastructure needs. That's why you have streetcars, subways and (forgive me, please) buses.

I've been to a number of European cities and the situation there is similar. In some cases (e.g. London) virtually all heavy-rail lines terminate on the periphery of the city and it is simply a given that you will have to transfer to a transit line.

walt wrote:During that era there was almost no coordination between the then PRT ( later PTC), the P&WCT ( later the Red Arrow Lines) and the two railroads. In fact there was a certain degree of antagonism among these entities, espcially where the PRR was concerned.

Not to mention the fact that the subways and some other transit facilities were owned by the city, while the railroads were owned by the robber barons(*). For many years, it was almost a civic duty to try and gouge the railroads as much as possible.

*--while that was the popular notion, in fact, the railroads were owned by their shareholders, many of whom were the proverbial 'widows and orphans.'

walt wrote:... In fact there was a certain degree of antagonism among these entities, espcially where the PRR was concerned...

It was not just antagonistic but sometimes destructive competition between the 2 RRs, and overt hostility to transit lines. The competition is how you ended up with 2 lines to Norristown and 2 to Chestnut Hill. I'm not sure how the PRR Norristown line lasted as long as it did, and CHE/CHW seem to be maintained today as much out of civic and political pressure as out of actual demand.

Read Ron DeGraw's history of the Red Arrow for stories about how the PRR tried to thwart the Taylors' plans. The steam RRs' clout is also the major reason that most trolley lines were forced to build to a non-standard "Pennsylvania gauge", as a way of preventing any kind of interconnections. The P&W uses standard gauge because it was chartered as a true railroad, even though SEPTA treats it like an overgrown trolley.

When I look at the results of uncoordinated competition among all those lines under private ownership, the market-capitalist in me sometimes feels like a believer in faith healing who has appendicitis.