International Hobby Corporation

Bigt,

It could happen. I mean, there are manufacturers with the capability and opportunity to do this, if they had the desire to.
I think the temptation is instead to milk the market for all it is worth. First, convince the model railroaders that they "need" DCC systems (not just locomotives, but all the hardware that supports them). Then, replace regular DC locomotives with "DCC ready" locomotives. Finally, offer their locomotives only with DCC. Take them or leave them. And, of course, ratchet up the price at each "level of improvement".

This approach concentrates marketing effort on the most affluent segment of the market. Baby Boomers in the most productive years of their lives, or retired Boomers with disposable income. People who otherwise (or in addition) would spend their money on mid-life crises cars, trophy wives, big boats, etc.

What about the kids? Students who are on their own, generally broke but still need an affordable hobby? Or people just starting families, who want a hobby that can continue youthful memories while developing a hobby that can bond them with their children?

A couple manufacturers are still offering low-end model train "sets" that are built to sell for a price point. While some of these come with limited capability DCC, some still come with Rapido couplers.

I'm not against "train sets". But they should be of sufficient quality to be like an onion set. Something you grow into something bigger and better. If the onion set is defective, it isn't going to grow, and might discourage the gardener of even trying. Same for the train set.

I think the best train sets for having the potential to be a real start are the Kato ones. Unfortunately, they may be too expensive to fill this niche. Bachmann has a great warranty program, but buyers, especially newbies, should not have to deal with warranty problems in the first place.

Athern made the best HO sets, back in "the day". They came with sturdy, good quality cars and "Blue Box" locomotives that would run for decades. Gone.

The manufacturers should see this train wreck coming. In the next ten-fifteen years, us Baby Boomers will be taking a dirt nap, and our great-grandchildren won't know what a model train is.

Les

To be honest, I really don't IHC, Mehano, or AHM as particularly fantastic model makers, even for the "price". Some of their products did run fairly well (I have an IHC GG1 and a Mehano SD40), but there are flaws that I consider unnecessary. In the case of the GG1, this was a little unavoidable because of the motor-drive layout, But the SD40 is Just a tad to far beyond "upgrading". This includes issues with the handrails, weird seams in the cabs, horrible pilots.

This is why I've always preferred the Athearn, and even when i first started at 13, I would pass up th IHC for Athearn product. By comparison, an Athearn SD40-2 could easily be upgraded to look and run fantastic, and didn't make half the compromises that IHC did. Once Athearn started going for scale width hoods instead of the "wide" hoods on some of their older GPs and SDs, Athearn pretty much set itself up for "win".

I'm not at all surprised IHC was not doing so well, since the products they sold look exactly the same as the ones in catalog from the previous decade.

Besides, I don't think that model trains are that inaccessible. Lets look at one of the Hobby's competitors, video games. I'm guessing most of you have never walked into the local Gamestop or the videogame section of Walmart. Most games are at least $60, and the ones that aren't are usually not worth the DVD disk they're printed on. Somehow, these kids are getting a hold of the "latest games", and someone is paying for them.

It is true that most locomotives these days cost more thant $60, But plenty of them cost below, such as Walthers Trainline, Several bachmann locomotives, and even some current Athearn.

There are more than enough "Entry level" locomotives out there to make a model railroad a realistic hobby for kids.

Though I certainly agree that the current prices are outragous, when it comes to young people, I think it has more to do with interest than cost.

Bigt wrote:Now, getting back to AHM / IHC and others. Do any of you think we will ever see a company, or companies, such as these ever again? Do you
think there would be room for, and more importantly, acceptance of such models again in todays' model
railroading? All are hypothetical questions, but, do you think a current manufacturer would listen to the
request for models of that detail and operating levels?

My response would be a resounding, NO. The very nature of the public face of our hobby has changed over the past 10-15 years. Whereas before then model railroaders were for the most part highly creative and skilled craftsmen, the sort of individual most commonly found posting today on the high membership count Internet website supposedly devoted to the hobby are, in general, little more than model train collectors and runners. They appear to have far more in common with the Lionel folks of long ago than with traditional model railroaders. As such, those that can afford it want ever more sophisticated, ultra-detailed, high-end, models. Without any doubt as long as that largely helpless but often well heeled segment of the hobby is willing to pay ever more for their RTR toys we will see the few remaining manufacturers offer less and less of anything else. This is identical to the path that collectible brass took over the years. Little wonder then, that two of the most recent HO locomotive "manufacturers" came from the brass trade. Incidentally, this buying your way into a hobby or pursuit, rather than attaining it on one's own talents, has become common in far more interests than simply model trains.

Consider, too, that in years gone by the company heads of virtually every HO locomotive and car manufacturer were, or had been, a model railroader himself. How many are there today...if any at all? When the basic motivation alters from growing the hobby for love of it to turning maximized profits the whole dynamic changes. Nor does there remain any potential to ever shifting back in the other direction. These folks likewise appreciate that the hobby is shrinking (to which they are contributing to a large degree of late through their pricing) and it is time to concentrate of extracting the largest profit while a reasonable number of hobbyists still remain. In addition, with the way the model train manufacturing situation is evolving in China of late, anticipate seeing a major across the industry price increase before the end of this year.

CNJ999

Both previous posts are so true! I had not thought about the manufacturers being modelers themselves,
but, certainly is a factor when it comes to the "big" companies. Although I have always been in HO, what
little bit I have been exposed to in the world of narrow gauge, or traction, modeling, it appears to me that
those folks are much like we were back when we started (early 70's for me). Not alot of things available,
(although that seems to be improving) so, you had better know how to build, kitbash, or whatever to get the
model railroad you want. Maybe those folks know something we are missing!

Desertdweller wrote: It was companies like IHC that got a lot of model railroaders started in the hobby, with affordable products. They performed a good service and are missed.

Les

I don't know, I think that Bachmann and Life-Like are more of what got them started. IHC was more of the next step up, but yeah, they were great models and they'll be missed. I always liked their Old Time 4-4-0 engines! They might have been somewhat overscaled, but they were much better performers than Bachmann's offerings. I also liked the variety of designs and roads available. Bachmann only had the CP Jupiter and the UP 119, and only recently started to offer more road names. But IHC had several, including one of B&O's no. 25! The only problem was that overtime the wormgear would give out and the engine could no longer operate!

jayo,

Well, here it is, two years later, and the situation apparently hasn't changed. I wonder if we have more model railroaders or fewer than when this thread was started? I would like to comment on it from the prospective of an N-scale modeler.

I think Walthers has saved Life-Like from going the way of IHC and Model Power by buying them out and improving their product line.
Arnold/Rapido/Minitrix went through a strange period of marketing each other's products, and has shaken out to Arnold and Rapido marketing products independently of each other in high-end plastic. Minitrix got hooked up with Model Power. Did they go down with them?

Bachmann is hanging in there with a high/low product mix. Low end with basic train sets and locos, available with or without DCC. High end with large steam locos, DCC. All kinds of other trains in a variety of scales.

Athearn has attempted to penetrate the N scale market, but without a lot of success. I think their products lack wide enough appeal.

Micro-Trains remains a niche player in N-scale. They built their business on couplers, but now have many competitors. Have a solid market share with freight cars, less so with passenger cars and locos.

Intermountain produces high quality locomotives, but are priced above the mass market.

Con-Cor, once the industry standard (selling locos with Kato drives), has slipped as their product line goes on with few improvements year to year.
They offer a wide range of passenger cars but, except for the couplers, seem to be the same ones they have always offered.

Kato seems to me to be the industry leader in terms of quality vs. price. Locos that are smooth, quiet, dependable. Locos and cars offered in railroad and even train-specific prototypes.

My own model railroad is equipped mostly with Walthers/Life-Like and Kato locomotives pulling Kato and Con-Cor passenger trains. The post-Walthers Life-Like locomotives were always quiet and good pullers, but were at first mechanically crude. Later production has corrected that.
Kato has maintained their refinement all along. They may, however, be too expensive for beginners.

Les

jaystreetcrr wrote:A big loss. As a kid in the 70s I grew up on AHM stuff, including those HOn30 Minitrains which they sold as a special offer for a crazy low price. The Rivarossi engines and rolling stock varied in quality and had those big flanges but were a great bargain.
Now that I'm in N scale I still look for the IHC houses and storefronts, with very sharp diework and lots of extra parts in every kit, and cheaper than other makers.

IHC were some of my engines for my layout growing up. It was when I got money from either my paper route or lawn mowing /snow shoveling job or when my patents gave me $$$ for my birthday. I started with a 4 by 8 layout...when I moved, it was 35 by 20 F shaped layout. (The moving company lost half of my layout when I moved. I lost my (all N Scale) Turbo Train (2), a custom painted U boat (For my East Hartford Terminal), 2 Plano tackle Boxes of cars (along with a Plano tackle box with Tackle) and 15 buildings (including 4 buildings I built from scratch). Oh well I hope they enjoyed it.
I can't find an NScale Turbo Train.

Now, a kid can't do what I did. It is expensive to get into.

Bigt wrote:Desertdweller (Les)....you hit it right on the head! As for the model press, this is why I only subscribe
to Railroad Model Craftsman magazine anymore....they seem to be the "old school" of model railroading,
certainly unlike Model Railroader magazine. Model Railroader at times (in my opinion) has the attitude
that what they say about this or that in the hobby is simply gospel! I feel the same way about Walthers...
they too have changed over the years....almost now have an "elitist" attitude. And take a look at their
prices! I had to laugh when you spoke of operating systems, ie, thumbtacks in the roofs of cars....I had
completely forgot about them! Remember the color codes so you don't deliver the wrong type of car to the
wrong destination! That practice was cutting edge!

One thing I used to read in MR was the teen section. It was back in the 70/80s when I was a teen. Now, they don't have a teen section and the TAMR don't advertise if they're still in business. Hobby shops are dying and it is time for a inexpensive quality model railroading company to start up. It would help a new generation to get interesting in trains. I see kids at train shows, but do they have trains? After school, my friends and I were in my basement running trains (when we weren't outside playing).

Desertdweller wrote:jayo,

Well, here it is, two years later, and the situation apparently hasn't changed. I wonder if we have more model railroaders or fewer than when this thread was started? I would like to comment on it from the prospective of an N-scale modeler.

I think Walthers has saved Life-Like from going the way of IHC and Model Power by buying them out and improving their product line.
Arnold/Rapido/Minitrix went through a strange period of marketing each other's products, and has shaken out to Arnold and Rapido marketing products independently of each other in high-end plastic. Minitrix got hooked up with Model Power. Did they go down with them?

Bachmann is hanging in there with a high/low product mix. Low end with basic train sets and locos, available with or without DCC. High end with large steam locos, DCC. All kinds of other trains in a variety of scales.

Athearn has attempted to penetrate the N scale market, but without a lot of success. I think their products lack wide enough appeal.

Micro-Trains remains a niche player in N-scale. They built their business on couplers, but now have many competitors. Have a solid market share with freight cars, less so with passenger cars and locos.

Intermountain produces high quality locomotives, but are priced above the mass market.

Con-Cor, once the industry standard (selling locos with Kato drives), has slipped as their product line goes on with few improvements year to year.
They offer a wide range of passenger cars but, except for the couplers, seem to be the same ones they have always offered.

Kato seems to me to be the industry leader in terms of quality vs. price. Locos that are smooth, quiet, dependable. Locos and cars offered in railroad and even train-specific prototypes.

My own model railroad is equipped mostly with Walthers/Life-Like and Kato locomotives pulling Kato and Con-Cor passenger trains. The post-Walthers Life-Like locomotives were always quiet and good pullers, but were at first mechanically crude. Later production has corrected that.
Kato has maintained their refinement all along. They may, however, be too expensive for beginners.

Les

Les...thanks for the update. Minitrix is out of business? Rapido was my first N Scale locomotive.(It was from Aurora Postage Stamp models). ConCor had nice vehicles.

Model Power/Tyco-Mantua has become a part of MRC's product lines,with the last items produced for Model Power,
are now repackaged to reflect MRC ownership,pricing is still unknown for now,and how well MRC is trying to
get Model Power's products out "there".

NMRA's Rio Grande Region has started a"Youth Model RR club" here in ABQ NM, with a "core" group of 15 members
and a modular layout with decent track plan.

FL,

Thanks for reviving this thread. I don't have an update on Minitrix.

There has been, I think, a significant development in DC model railroading. This looks to be very important because it is a way around having to go to DCC in order to get some of the desirable effects of DCC without the cost. The effect of this will help DC compete against DCC.

The system I refer to is the KATO Soundbox. This is intended for use on DC controlled model railroads. What this provides the modeler is locomotive engine sound, horn, bell, coupling sound, brake sound, and air compressor sound. The purpose is to give an "in cab" sound experience. By using a single, large, fixed speaker, the sound is much better than that provided by tiny speakers mounted inside locomotives. The sounds were recorded from real trains, and so are authentic. Interchangeable sound cards provide prototype-specific sounds. My unit (one of the first, I think) came with a card that provides EMD 567 non-turbo sounds. The units also provide momentum effect.

Why I think this is important to the hobby is, the manufacturer also produces DC and DCC locomotives. Rather than writing off the DC market, they came out with this product that allows DC operators to enjoy these effects. It is also perfect for N-scale trains, as all of this works through a stationary located device. It works with locomotives new and old. It is way more authentic than the MRC Soundstation, as specific prime mover sounds are provided. Change from an EMD to an ALCO? Just switch sound cards.

The system uses EMF-feedback to synch engine sounds, instead of linking sound directly to throttle position. There is also an "engine start" sound.

This system hooks in between the powerpack/throttle and the power feeder circuit to the track. It is pretty simple to hook up.

Maybe this will help give impetus to DC control. It requires no changes to under the layout wiring.
When DCC was introduced, it was greatly oversold with claims that "two wires to the track can control your whole layout". It was soon found to be more sensitive to voltage drop than DC, and so required more feeder wires. You can also run a DC layout on "just two wires", but not very well.
Then DCC was promoted as a way to get more sounds out of your locomotive. I think this solves the problem for DC operators.

DCC has been promoted as a way to control things that could be better controlled with a simple DC or even AC circuit. I cannot for the life of me figure why anyone would want to use a DCC channel and decoder to operate a switch machine.

I often read of newcomers who are baffled by DCC, or can't understand why they can't run their DC locomotives on DCC controlled railroads. One guy on another forum put his DC-powered lighted passenger cars on a DCC layout and wondered why all his lights burned out.

KATO, of course, makes both DC and DCC locomotives, so in a way is competing against themselves with the Soundbox. But I think they are responding to a real problem in the hobby, and I'm very happy they did.

Les

To use a DC Loco on DCC you use("channel #") 00 on the throttle,however all the lights are on all the time,the motor will "hum"
while on DCC and run a bit warm.
00 was part of the DCC standards created by NMRA,a lot of the Basic DCC systems done by Bachmann and some of the
"train set" DCC systems use this 00 channel all the time.

Backshop,

So the 00 address will operate a DC loco on DCC, except that the lights are on all the time, the motor hums and runs warm? What is the advantage to that?

Why produce a DCC trainset that runs on channel 00 all the time? Don't those train sets come with DCC-equipped locomotives? If the locomotive is DCC, why run it on channel 00? Is it to allow another DCC loco to run on another channel at the same time? Isn't there a danger of burning something out (like a motor) if there is constant power on the rails, with headlights on and motors humming and heating up? Isn't it a safety (fire) hazard?

One of the big advantages (to me at least) with DC is, when the throttle is turned off, the track is electrically dead. And when the dpdt block power switches (Atlas Selectors) are in the "center off" position, the track is dead too. All power packs (two with pilot lights) and outlets on my railroad are wired into a master surge protector/power strip. When the switch on this strip is turned off, all power to the layout is shut off. When the pilot lights go off, everything is shut down and safe.

Les

There are some models that are some what unconvertable for Historical reasons or owner preferance,that can run
only on 00 as long they are in good condition,and drop power to the rail at N scale level(at 12volt max at rail,
Normal HO is set at 14.5 volts at rail),a fair chunck of early Brass models can be handled that way without
needing a total rebuild,as well as testing of older models before a DCC conversion is done.
Case in point,Have a model of a GE 35 tonner,best described with a "Crew cab" version cab where
the motor lives,have rigged it with a 9 pin harness,and a decoder,now used as a local switcher in an Industrial park
set of modules.
This was 1 of the first locos I bought when I was a youth,decades ago,an AHM/IHC model!

To me, DCC seems to be a lot of expense and technical hassle that I cannot afford, or, need.
I have seen layouts operating with it.....it is nice, and, I have nothing against those who use
it. I just hope that the manufacturers - at least some of them - will not forget those of us who
still use DC, but, I do have my doubts. I do agree with one of the other posters regarding the
youth missing in our hobby. Our local club, which was not a "big" club (30 to 35 members),
usually had eight to ten teens as members. This was true for a number of years. However,
that is no longer true....we have no teens now....they have all left the area, or, have left the
hobby. As a matter of fact, our youngest member is 42 years old, and has "come back" to the
hobby after a career in the US Navy.