• How to get best results from Amtrak Wi-Fi

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by SouthernRailway
 
On a recent trip on the Crescent, Amtrak's Wi-Fi worked well along the Northeast Corridor, but once I was south of Washington, I was able to connect to it, but Internet service didn't work.

I'm low-tech and don't understand this. Aren't the Wi-Fi devices in the cars themselves, so they should work wherever the train is? Or was my location (middle of a sleeping car) just far from the Wi-Fi transmitting devices?

For my next trip, are there any tips to how to ensure that you can connect to Amtrak Wi-Fi and that it will allow Internet service? For example, should I just not expect it to work in certain areas- perhaps rural ones? And would being located in a specific part of a car result in the best service?

Thanks.
  by Allouette
 
Onboard wifi service relies on the same sort of cell phone infrastructure that you would while driving. Unfortunately the major highways along the Crescent's route don't follow the NS main line the way the Corridor follows major highways. The registration for onboard wifi involves a connection to an off-train resource that can fail if the tower-to-train or train-to-tower path is poor or changes in certain ways during wifi setup. My experience on the Crescent is that service is pretty good around medium-to-large cities but very spotty in the between city areas.

The on-board experience is likely to be best in the lounge, which is always equipped with the wifi gear. The stainless steel tube of Amfleet and Viewliner equipment is very nearly a network designer's worst case scenario for designing coverage.
  by STrRedWolf
 
SouthernRailway wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:09 am On a recent trip on the Crescent, Amtrak's Wi-Fi worked well along the Northeast Corridor, but once I was south of Washington, I was able to connect to it, but Internet service didn't work.

I'm low-tech and don't understand this. Aren't the Wi-Fi devices in the cars themselves, so they should work wherever the train is? Or was my location (middle of a sleeping car) just far from the Wi-Fi transmitting devices?

For my next trip, are there any tips to how to ensure that you can connect to Amtrak Wi-Fi and that it will allow Internet service? For example, should I just not expect it to work in certain areas- perhaps rural ones? And would being located in a specific part of a car result in the best service?

Thanks.
While the WiFi may work between cars, the issue is more likely between the Wifi's hot spot and the cellular network being used. For instance, past Harrisburg on the Pennsylvanian towards Pittsburgh, there is ZERO cell network coverage.

When you get an Internet slowdown or stoppage on the train, take out your Cell phone and see if you got coverage. If you don't, likely the train doesn't ether.
  by Tadman
 
I have long since given up on Amtrak's wifi system. It appears to be a "well the kids are all using wifi so we need to as well" situation.

To add on to the above, here's what I see.

The wifi system is basically one bigass cellphone/hotspot on top of the lounge car. While it has the benefit of a steady power supply and a much larger antenna than your iphone, the conceptual limitations are the same. If the HEP is unplugged or the lounge car is way out in the boones, you're out of luck.


Then there is a wifi router hooked to said bigass hotspot. Again I'm presuming it's much bigger and more powerful than your home wifi router, but not totally sure. I do know that some businesses try to skimp and use a few top-end consumer grade wifi routers rather than a commercial grade router with varying results. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'm not sure about the grade of Amtrak's wifi router.

There appears to be little limitations to how many people can be online and what they do, IE stream movies. It sucks down bandwidth. When the train is in an area of distant signal, it exacerbates the problem.


Most airlines have gone to a pay system. While this sounds uncool, it allows the wifi to become a profit center that then has a budget for repair and upkeep. In fact, most airlines have contracted out the system. What this does is completely isolate the wifi system and its budget - it must run and operate based on the user fees, so the carrier can't even come over and borrow from the budget when they decide something is higher priority. It also makes the wifi contractor come up with simple tech support mechanisms, because they know that it would never work to have a tech guy riding each train or plane. There has to be a foolproof way to troubleshoot that the layman can use.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Tadman wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:51 am Most airlines have gone to a pay system. While this sounds uncool, it allows the wifi to become a profit center that then has a budget for repair and upkeep. In fact, most airlines have contracted out the system. What this does is completely isolate the wifi system and its budget - it must run and operate based on the user fees, so the carrier can't even come over and borrow from the budget when they decide something is higher priority. It also makes the wifi contractor come up with simple tech support mechanisms, because they know that it would never work to have a tech guy riding each train or plane. There has to be a foolproof way to troubleshoot that the layman can use.
Airline Wifi is very limited, because they're using plane-to-ground or plane-to-satellite communications (or both). That means bandwidth is very limited... and most streaming is banned at the router (it'll redirect to the in-plane portal). I bet remote desktop work is this way too. The only thing it's good for is non-video social media, email, and static web browsing -- I disable any file sync service like Dropbox.

But what are you streaming, anyway? Movies? Sure, bundle a bunch on each flight (SD card works well, and you can fit a lot of movies on a 128 GB card), charge cheaper than anyone on the ground, and give a few away for free. Live TV? Use a sat TV receiver. Southwest even shows Fox News for free this way. I bet they can get sat TV easy enough.

Can this be done on an Amtrak train in each coach? Yes! The tech fits in the palm of your hand. I have Wifi routers that are sized to fit a quarter of your palm's area, and can be powered off of USB -- the Vocore 2 series ($25-$45). I also have two HooToo Tripmates that are bigger, one with batteries. They run OpenWRT and can do mesh networking to connect the entire train together. The tech is there and it's cheap. Everything else is customizing the OpenWRT's web server and formatting the videos for streaming over HTTP (HLS).
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:35 am
Tadman wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:51 am Most airlines have gone to a pay system.
Airline Wifi is very limited, .....
This is a fun topic for me to review, mainly because, if you ask me, on board/in flight wifi simply never works.

Jet Blue either does or did offer free in flight wi-fi. Only problem, or at least during '15 when I last had occasion to fly them, it didn't work.

I once actually paid United for same, but it didn't work. They never processed the charge.

On Amtrak, for my '18 Auto-Train trip, they announced at the start, there would be no wifi. I just used.Mobile Data, which is no biggie to me, even though I like to know where I am enroute.

For my '20 trip, it worked all the way.

Overseas on OBB in Austria, what a joke. One minute Google.Msps thought we were somewhere in Russia; the next in the middle of the Irish Sea.

Maybe there are travelers out there depending on it to get work done, but to me it is just some kind of "take it or leave it" plaything.

But a pleasant surprise; last October flying to Richmond on an ERJ-145 (single seat on the Left), I had my phone set like I should to Airplane Mode. But to my surprise, it still received signals so Google Maps "kind of" worked. No Attendant "jumped.me" - and here I am to relate the tale.
  by ThirdRail7
 
Perhaps the new CEO will pick up this mantle. If you recall, Mr. Anderson wanted to provide a better wi-fi solution for the NEC at least....but then decided he didn't want to invest in it and scrapped it. This was done to save on costs.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:53 am But a pleasant surprise; last October flying to Richmond on an ERJ-145 (single seat on the Left), I had my phone set like I should to Airplane Mode. But to my surprise, it still received signals so Google Maps "kind of" worked. No Attendant "jumped.me" - and here I am to relate the tale.
I would not be surprised if "Airplane Mode" let Wifi through, it picked up a known network, and that was configured to let Google Maps through as part of their in-flight passenger site.
  by Tadman
 
ThirdRail7 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:06 pm Perhaps the new CEO will pick up this mantle. If you recall, Mr. Anderson wanted to provide a better wi-fi solution for the NEC at least....but then decided he didn't want to invest in it and scrapped it. This was done to save on costs.
I hope he does, it could be a real feature and growth tool. I think it also makes the case for an outside carrier, as Mr. Anderson appears to have done exactly what happens when wifi is handled in-house. "We need money for X project and there's plenty in the wifi account, let's borrowing it". If this were conracted through GoGo, you can't exactly tap the GOGO bank account.
  by Tadman
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:35 am
Tadman wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:51 am Most airlines have gone to a pay system. While this sounds uncool, it allows the wifi to become a profit center that then has a budget for repair and upkeep. In fact, most airlines have contracted out the system. What this does is completely isolate the wifi system and its budget - it must run and operate based on the user fees, so the carrier can't even come over and borrow from the budget when they decide something is higher priority. It also makes the wifi contractor come up with simple tech support mechanisms, because they know that it would never work to have a tech guy riding each train or plane. There has to be a foolproof way to troubleshoot that the layman can use.
Airline Wifi is very limited, because they're using plane-to-ground or plane-to-satellite communications (or both). That means bandwidth is very limited... and most streaming is banned at the router (it'll redirect to the in-plane portal). I bet remote desktop work is this way too. The only thing it's good for is non-video social media, email, and static web browsing -- I disable any file sync service like Dropbox.
I don't mind that streaming is banned, I find it keeps the network faster. I'm usually just trying to catch up on email or do some writing/powerpoint making for upcoming meetings. Lately some airlines are allowing streaming. That said, I've dropped my GOGO subscription as I find it frustrating.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Tadman wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:27 pm I don't mind that streaming is banned, I find it keeps the network faster. I'm usually just trying to catch up on email or do some writing/powerpoint making for upcoming meetings. Lately some airlines are allowing streaming. That said, I've dropped my GOGO subscription as I find it frustrating.
I think it's limited streaming of items it's already receiving outside the regular communications (satellite feeds). Anything canned (movies, for instance) can be stored on an SD card and broadcast locally.
  by Greg Moore
 
As noted, the general setup is the cell radios are located in the cafe/lounge cars (this is one reason why the Empire Service trains continue to drag around a cafe car, even when terminating in Albany. That and they stick business class there).

Last I heard, there were a minimum of 5 antennas per cafe car, and they were designed to hop from carrier to carrier as needed.
Each coach (and now I believe sleeper) has a wifi antenna that transmit to the cafe (I've been told somehow via wire, but I'm not sure how they do that unless they're piggybacking it on the HEP, which is technically feasible).

So, in theory, it doesn't depend where on the train you are (i.e. being further from the cafe car doesn't slow things down).
In practice, it can. As someone noted, the Amfleet cans aren't quite conducive for RF signals. This isn't entirely true, but it's not false either. The thing is, for various reasons, the WAP (wireless access point) within a particular car might be off-line, which means you're trying to pick up a signal from the car in front of behind you. With the amount of metal at the end of the cars, that's going to be an issue.

The real issue I've found with Amtrak wifi honestly is that it HAS been so successful. I've seen several memos over the years talking about the various upgrades and it strikes me that they're trying to keep up with demand and it's been hard.

Yes, as someone noted, in theory, streaming is banned, because that's the most bandwidth intensive thing. But, there's ways around that.
But even w/o pure streaming, you can find that a 50+ people per car (to pick a random number) can quickly eat up bandwidth. On a 7 car train, that's 350 people trying to get access through the cell radios.

And it's unfortunately a self-reinforcing issue. On popular routes, like the NEC, you've got a lot of business travellers and other folks who expect wifi, so will use it. The minute you upgrade that, people will use it more, etc.

And as noted, there's stretches of the Crescent for example where you will get no wifi because there's simply no cell service. Even using my own phone's data shows no service.

In my experience, planes partly do better because they lock down access FAR more Amtrak and because they charge for it, I suspect far fewer people use it.

Myself, I often try to use Amtrak wifi, but if I can't, will switch to my cell. It's not necessarily faster (which makes sense, if the trains in the area are swamping the cell network already) but a tad more robust (fewer dropped connections, etc). But even then, I often find both will work poorly.

In fact, I'd say that my data usage on the Empire service ends up being no more reliable nor faster than when I started using it about 15+ years ago, and I suspect that's partly because there's simply that many more people now using it that the additional bandwidth and cells "slots" have been filled up.

I'm ignoring details like NAT that may be an issue on trains (but shouldn't) and filling up MAC address tables, which I suspect is sometimes an issue.
That said, from what I can tell, their equipment is not consumer grade, but above that.

That said, I can offer some advice (which if everyone did would help).
Keep as few tabs in browsers open as possible. In fact, use as few apps on your phone or laptop as possible. You'd be amazed at the amount of data portable devices send back and forth on even "inactive" tabs and programs. This will reduce your bandwidth requirements and if everyone did it, it might help overall.

Finally, I suspect right now, if you were to ride on the NEC, you'd find the bandwidth to be very fast :-/
  by David Benton
 
There was a photo in Trains magazine , of them installing data cables in a coach to enable Wifi. It wasn't just a cat 5 cable, or 2, looked substantial, maybe fibre optic. Possibly there are aerials on each end of each car to transmit to the next car. Or superimposed on the Hep cable , as you mention is possible.
  by Tadman
 
Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm ... within a particular car might be off-line, which means you're trying to pick up a signal from the car in front of behind you. With the amount of metal at the end of the cars, that's going to be an issue.


That's a good point, had thought of that. On NICTD trains each coach has its wifi identified by car number which is in mailbox letters inside to help riders select the closest access point. Perhaps if Amtrak were to do the same, and put mailbox letters with the last three digits of the car at some strategic highly visible places
Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm Yes, as someone noted, in theory, streaming is banned, because that's the most bandwidth intensive thing. But, there's ways around that.
But even w/o pure streaming, you can find that a 50+ people per car (to pick a random number) can quickly eat up bandwidth. On a 7 car train, that's 350 people trying to get access through the cell radios.


As far as I'm aware, some airlines ban streaming video but Amtrak does not.

Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm And it's unfortunately a self-reinforcing issue. On popular routes, like the NEC, you've got a lot of business travellers and other folks who expect wifi, so will use it. The minute you upgrade that, people will use it more, etc.


Wouldn't a paid wifi, especially a third party, then have a budget to not only upgrade but provide higher bandwidth?

Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm That said, I can offer some advice (which if everyone did would help).
Keep as few tabs in browsers open as possible. In fact, use as few apps on your phone or laptop as possible. You'd be amazed at the amount of data portable devices send back and forth on even "inactive" tabs and programs. This will reduce your bandwidth requirements and if everyone did it, it might help overall.
This is really good info and I tend to forget I'm not on my home network. My tab count can get a bit crazy.
  by Greg Moore
 
Tadman wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:44 am
Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm ... within a particular car might be off-line, which means you're trying to pick up a signal from the car in front of behind you. With the amount of metal at the end of the cars, that's going to be an issue.


That's a good point, had thought of that. On NICTD trains each coach has its wifi identified by car number which is in mailbox letters inside to help riders select the closest access point. Perhaps if Amtrak were to do the same, and put mailbox letters with the last three digits of the car at some strategic highly visible places
This is actually not a great solution. A well designed wifi network should seamlessly hand off from on WAP to another and in theory, a device will pick the stronger. There's other factors that come into play. But, this is why on a train you only see one SSID for Amtrak, not one per car. With one per car, first you'd get folks trying to "scam the system" by jumping from car to car. Also, it would mean every time you got on a new train, you'd have to add that SSID to your device. By using a single shared SSID across the train, you can set your device to "always connect to Amtrak" not "always connect to Amtrak123, Amtrak234, Amtrak522, Amtrak, etc..."
Tadman wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:44 am
Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm Yes, as someone noted, in theory, streaming is banned, because that's the most bandwidth intensive thing. But, there's ways around that.
But even w/o pure streaming, you can find that a 50+ people per car (to pick a random number) can quickly eat up bandwidth. On a 7 car train, that's 350 people trying to get access through the cell radios.


As far as I'm aware, some airlines ban streaming video but Amtrak does not.
It's been too long since I last rode, but my recollection is the wifi on trains block VPN and streaming. The stations don't.
But I've also seen some inconsistencies in this policy.
Tadman wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:44 am
Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm And it's unfortunately a self-reinforcing issue. On popular routes, like the NEC, you've got a lot of business travellers and other folks who expect wifi, so will use it. The minute you upgrade that, people will use it more, etc.


Wouldn't a paid wifi, especially a third party, then have a budget to not only upgrade but provide higher bandwidth?
Maybe, but again Amtrak is partly limited to the number of cell towers along the route.
And remember, now, unlike an airplane where you have no choice, your paid service is now competing against everyone's own data plan. So you have to offer something better than what they have now.
Tadman wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:44 am
Greg Moore wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:09 pm That said, I can offer some advice (which if everyone did would help).
Keep as few tabs in browsers open as possible. In fact, use as few apps on your phone or laptop as possible. You'd be amazed at the amount of data portable devices send back and forth on even "inactive" tabs and programs. This will reduce your bandwidth requirements and if everyone did it, it might help overall.
This is really good info and I tend to forget I'm not on my home network. My tab count can get a bit crazy.
I suspect that's true of many of us.