High Speed Rail HSR (Houston - DFW Dallas Fort Worth) (FKA Texas Central )

I suspect the cost of finishing the double track in Tarrant County and whatever is still left in Dallas would be a pittance compared to what it will cost to bridge the Trinity twice.

That said.... Arlington is indeed missed by every other transit plan. What might work is a north-south connector from Arlington to Denton via Centerport, DFW and Flower Mound.

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electricron wrote:Additionally, many Dallas city council members at the present time question the very expensive extension to Fort Worth because the TRE already exists. The proposed NCTCOG HSR plan suggests around 30 minutes travel time when the TRE does so in 60 minutes. That's a proposed 60 mph average speed vs the present 30 mph average speed, An express TRE train can match that proposed 60 mph average speed. Just a matter of adding additional tracks into the TRE rail corridor wide enough to fit more. Granted, additional capacity to an existing corridor is not as fancy and cool as HSR.

Stop making sense ye simpleton

There's a reason why Texas Central stopped 5 miles short of downtown Houston and why they stopped a half mile short of Dallas' Union Station. The main reason being the very high costs of building new tracks and new stations in central business districts.

With the Houston terminal that far outside the downtown area why even bother taking the train at all? You might as well just take a plane.

NH2060 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:15 pm With the Houston terminal that far outside the downtown area why even bother taking the train at all? You might as well just take a plane.

Why do we always assume that train travelers want to go to the city center? Especially in a place as decentralized as Houston?

You're not wrong, but it's the site of an abandoned shopping mall that went out of business for a reason...

Granted, it's not far too from Galleria, but is mostly inconvenient to anything else e.g. NASA, Medical Center, downtown, Energy Corridor, Woodlands, etc.

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:36 pm You're not wrong, but it's the site of an abandoned shopping mall that went out of business for a reason...

Granted, it's not far too from Galleria, but is mostly inconvenient to anything else e.g. NASA, Medical Center, downtown, Energy Corridor, Woodlands, etc.

Thanks!

Why do we always assume that train travelers want to go to the city center? Especially in a place as decentralized as Houston?

I think this is a thing that Boston's Amtrak layout gets right. North and South stations act as the city center station, and both the north (Downeaster) and south (NEC) sides have stations with ample parking adjacent to the junctions of the major circumferential and north/south highways.

I spent eight years of my life commuting to Houston for certain tasks. The place is more spread out than LA.

THERE IS NO CONVENIENT SITE FOR ANY TRANSPORTATION MODE’S TERMINAL

I've had relatives in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex for decades now and I've been impressed by the growth of rail transit there in recent years. I have ridden TRE between Dallas and Fort Worth and it's a perfectly good connection as is - maybe add some Sunday service but no need for expensive high speed rail between the two cities. Now I suppose there's another connection too - you could take DART to DFW and then the new TEXRail from there to Fort Worth, but that's of course not practical. But it does show how transit has grown. I was there visiting family over Thanksgiving and I got to take a ride on a more historical transit system in Dallas - the McKinney Ave Trolley. I understand that the new Dallas streetcar which runs to the south from Union Station is planned to eventually integrate with the old trolley line!

Lots of good points made here.

1. Houston has like five downtowns and 4-5 exurbs that are cities unto themselves. Where do you terminate this? The real downtown? Galleria? Medical district? Hobby? IAH? Energy Corridor? Katy? Conroe? Woodlands? If this were Chicago or New York, "downtown" would be the answer as Metra/Metro North make it easy to get downtown. Folks in Katy don't go downtown. Ever.

2. TRE is a such a mystery to me. I've been aboard a few times and it's a long quiet ride that in theory should be useful but is not. It could be because, like Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth are very spread out. There are far more in the north suburbs than the "twin city" of Fort Worth. This is not like uptown and downtown Manhattan that sees a lot of crossover. People in Fort Worth live west of downtown or up in HEB and work downtown (sometimes). It's not that common to commute to Dallas. Also, the middle ground between the two cities is surprisingly unpopulated compared to the north end around DFW.

If I were doing this Texas Central thing? Probably Denton - DFW - Dallas - Waco - Bryan - Conroe - Woodlands - IAH - Houston?

Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:43 pm Lots of good points made here.

1. Houston has like five downtowns and 4-5 exurbs that are cities unto themselves. Where do you terminate this? The real downtown? Galleria? Medical district? Hobby? IAH? Energy Corridor? Katy? Conroe? Woodlands? If this were Chicago or New York, "downtown" would be the answer as Metra/Metro North make it easy to get downtown. Folks in Katy don't go downtown. Ever.

2. TRE is a such a mystery to me. I've been aboard a few times and it's a long quiet ride that in theory should be useful but is not. It could be because, like Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth are very spread out. There are far more in the north suburbs than the "twin city" of Fort Worth. This is not like uptown and downtown Manhattan that sees a lot of crossover. People in Fort Worth live west of downtown or up in HEB and work downtown (sometimes). It's not that common to commute to Dallas. Also, the middle ground between the two cities is surprisingly unpopulated compared to the north end around DFW.

If I were doing this Texas Central thing? Probably Denton - DFW - Dallas - Waco - Bryan - Conroe - Woodlands - IAH - Houston?

To be honest, if Houston is that spread out, it should have a subway or light rail system that connects all five "downtowns" with the airport(s) and big transit hubs. Amtrak and Texas Central High Speed would qualify as a big transit hub. But we don't have that there and Houston's just getting light rail in.

And TRE? I'm thinking that's more of a way to get to DFW Airport w/o taking a car from ether Dallas or Fort Worth. It's a *single line*. It can *grow*. But you know how politicans are...

markhb wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 4:52 pm

NH2060 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:15 pm With the Houston terminal that far outside the downtown area why even bother taking the train at all? You might as well just take a plane.

Why do we always assume that train travelers want to go to the city center? Especially in a place as decentralized as Houston?

Because that is *LITERALLY* the biggest selling point for taking the train between 2 particular city pairs. Kinda hard to successfully sell it as “you can conveniently board our trains 5 miles outside the heart of the downtown area”. If the terminal is located right next to a busy and fast light rail/subway/commuter rail line you might be able to sell that to the public, but otherwise (particularly if fighting through rush hour traffic that could make you miss said train)? Nope.

FatNoah wrote:

Why do we always assume that train travelers want to go to the city center? Especially in a place as decentralized as Houston?

I think this is a thing that Boston's Amtrak layout gets right. North and South stations act as the city center station, and both the north (Downeaster) and south (NEC) sides have stations with ample parking adjacent to the junctions of the major circumferential and north/south highways.

BINGO. And there are ample subway, light rail, and commuter rail connections at both terminals. Not to mention the Rte. 128 and Woburn “belt” stops for those not traveling into and out of downtown; I imagine the MBTA Boston Landing station in Allston could be a contender for any Inland Route and East-West Rail passenger trains.

STrRedWolf wrote:

To be honest, if Houston is that spread out, it should have a subway or light rail system that connects all five "downtowns" with the airport(s) and big transit hubs. Amtrak and Texas Central High Speed would qualify as a big transit hub. But we don't have that there and Houston's just getting light rail in.

Houston invested in HOV lanes and significant express bus services. They really don't need light rail. It works as a downtown circulator and a way to get to the Medical Center from downtown. But the buses are king for commuters.

STrRedWolf wrote:

And TRE? I'm thinking that's more of a way to get to DFW Airport w/o taking a car from ether Dallas or Fort Worth. It's a *single line*. It can *grow*. But you know how politicans are...

No, TRE doesn't even directly serve the airport.

From Centreport (an office park/apartment community south of the airport) a shuttle bus runs to the rental car facility with a transfer to a second bus to the terminals... a three seat connection that takes 30-45 minutes from the train to the terminal, a distance of 7.5 miles.

DART and TexRail do serve the airport directly from both downtowns.

It's a service targeted at commuters to Dallas. When I lived there, very few rode between Fort Worth and Centreport, but because its a joint service Fort Worth and Dallas both pay for, they really have no choice but to continue serving Fort Worth.

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STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:03 pm - IAH - Houston?
To be honest, if Houston is that spread out, it should have a subway or light rail system that connects all five "downtowns" with the airport(s) and big transit hubs. Amtrak and Texas Central High Speed would qualify as a big transit hub. But we don't have that there and Houston's just getting light rail in.

My friends in Houston are wedded to their cars. There is NWIH they will vote for light rail.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 7:59 pm My friends in Houston are wedded to their cars. There is NWIH they will vote for light rail.

But Houston does have two light rail lines. Not only will they pay for it, they already have!

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 8:14 pm

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 7:59 pm My friends in Houston are wedded to their cars. There is NWIH they will vote for light rail.

But Houston does have two light rail lines. Not only will they pay for it, they already have!

They need more.