Hiawatha Service: Ending Monthly Passes

If they want to be serious about beyond-MKE trains, and at the same time be serious about MKE-Chicago, it is a reasonable suggestion that those shouldn't be the same train. Folks from MKE/MKA southbound do not want to wait for whatever travails entails up north on CP. You get much more then the occasional 30 minute delay, and Cream City riders will be driving again or at least going to Kenosha or Lake Forest to catch Metra.

Don't forget the CNW also served Milwaukee ~5-7 times a day, and half of those were with suburban bilevels.

I don't have a 1970 timetable handy, but 1962 had two pure suburban trips, and two thru trips to Green Bay also with bilevels.




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Train miles on the CNW was 84 timetabled at 75 minutes.... MILW would have been a bit longer.

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There are quite a few commuter services that do not offer monthly fares. The Jitney (used by eastern Long Island
commuters) only offers 10-trip books. Many North Jersey private carrier buses only offer 10 or 20 trip tickets.

And (drumroll), North America's busiest commuter system, NYCT bus & subway did not offer even weekly or
monthly passes until the unlimited MetroCard appeared on July 4, 1998. The daily commuter had used tokens
for many years (often requiring two tokens per trip if using both bus and subway, a double fare).

So just because certain other systems don't offer an incentive for frequent riders means that this route shouldn't?

I agree that MKE-CHI trains should generally be separate services from trains originating further away. Are the current trains usually at capacity? IIRC the consists are 4-5 Horizon coaches. If the equipment was available, would there be a case for lengthening them? Would the platforms allow it?

At this point I believe frequency is the better way to increase capacity, but doing both is of course helpful as well.

I did recently learn that when studying transit use in America, its generally considered a good idea to exclude NYMTA, since that transit organization accounts for 1/2 of transit use (i.e., any study that includes NYMTA will show how transit is used in NYC, with maybe a slight nudge of stats from other inputs).

Siemens Venture Cab Control cars (presumably similar to VIA's New Corridor fleet) are on order, so eventually the trains will be lengthened by at least one car and one of the two Charger locomotives on the train will be freed up for other services (including possibly more Hiawatha trains).

Looking through new releases, I see that there are projects (more sidings, a second platform at the airport station, rebuilding some junctions) that should improve reliability and allow frequency increases, but that the towns of Lake Forest and Glenview opposed the improvement projects sufficiently that IL DOT cancelled them in those towns.

The schedule shows 86 miles.

west point wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:45 am The schedule shows 86 miles.

Shorter than Port Jervis or Montauk, or similar to NYP-PHL.

Whether a particular train service offers discount passes or not in whatever form shouldn't depend upon what others do. You have your own Board, your own funding mechanisms, and your own customers' expectations. What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander.
Otherwise, why have your own local Board making these decisions?

Amtrak runs the only service that operates NYP-PHL without requiring a change of trains. NJT operates no services south of Trenton on the NEC and SEPTA operates no services north of Trenton.

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:58 pm Amtrak runs the only service that operates NYP-PHL without requiring a change of trains. NJT operates no services south of Trenton on the NEC and SEPTA operates no services north of Trenton.

Years ago Amtrak ran a clocker that departed NYP - PHL sometime around 1700. A very long train with steam heat and about 14 cars all coach that stopped Newark, /Trenton. Train was always very full. Often wondered how all those passengers traveled when that clocker was eliminated.

If Wikipedia is correct, once Amtrak began accepting NJ Transit tickets on the Clockers, the Clockers all but stopped carrying traffic to PHL as NJ Transit passengers used the Clockers as "express commuter" trains. Amtrak sold the Clocker slots to NJ Transit, which ran its own commuter trains in those slots to Trenton.

This does suggest that while the Hiawatha is a short Amtrak services, it's utility for Wisconsin could be diminished if it accepted METRA tickets or served more stations in Illinois as it would be treated as an express commuter service, possibly crowding out some passengers traveling between Illinois and Wisconsin.

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 5:17 pm Don't forget the CNW also served Milwaukee ~5-7 times a day, and half of those were with suburban bilevels.

Mr. Olesen, some clarification is needed here.

Very true, the C&NW did run intercity trains, over which they were very pessimistic when compared with the Q and the MILW, but they were optimistic about commuter service and in fact with some fancy bookwork, they proclaimed they were making a profit during the later '50's. Towards the end, in exchange for getting rid of their "losers" serving Northern Wisconsin and the Michigan Upper Peninsula, they agreed to purchase brand new equipment for those remaining trains. These cars were built on the existing Pullman-Standard frames used for the commuter bi-levels, but had reclining seats with somewhat greater pitch. They also had several of the cars configured to provide some kind of food service.

I rode 'em once; I guess to say I rode to Milwaukee on the C&NW.

The C&NW route hung on to A-Day, but the cars were never converted to commuter cars as planned. Rather Amtrak acquired the cars assigning them to trains such as the Illinois Zephyr and the Chi-Valprasio "Valpo Local". They were even liveried in Amtrak "phase II".

"Here endeth the Epistle" as I recall it.

There were 16 bi-levels which were "pool equipment" for use on the Flambeau (Chicago-Ashland) and the Peninsula (Chicago-Green Bay-Menominee-Marquette) 400's. Those cars did get moved to Amtrak and were used on the trains you mentioned -- 121 , 209 (Peninsula), 153 (Flambeau), and 239 (Shoreland).

However....

It appears as late as 1969, trains 125 and 149 ran with commuter equipment. I don't have a timetable from 1970 or prior to May 1971 to compare with... (and I'm only listing westbound trains. What goes up eventually comes back down)

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:31 am The C&NW route hung on to A-Day, but the cars were never converted to commuter cars as planned. Rather Amtrak acquired the cars assigning them to trains such as the Illinois Zephyr and the Chi-Valprasio "Valpo Local". They were even liveried in Amtrak "phase II

As an addendum to this earlier posting, Mr Rohr located a photo that shows Phase II livery applied to the former C&NW bi-level cars:

https://www.railroad.net/siemens-to-man ... l#p1634818