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Fort Wayne IN - Chicago (wasValparaiso, IN commuter service)

General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

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Fort Wayne IN - Chicago (wasValparaiso, IN commuter service)

  by doepack
 
In 1979, Amtrak operated commuter trains between Union Station and Valparaiso, IN; taking over the service from Conrail. The service was discontinued in 1991, largely because the state of Indiana refused to subsidize the trains.

But I've never quite understood how Amtrak became involved in the first place; did they actually volunteer to run the trains, or was there some sort of legislation forcing them to do so? Appreciating the edification in advance...

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
I understand your point Mr. Donan (from Wheaton IL? I presume) as I have wondered same myself.

I think it was just one more of these "what's a commuter train?". Yes, Amtrak was defined as an intercity carrier by its enabling lesislation , RPSA '70, but then Conrail by its enabling legislation, 3R '74, was precluded from operating passenger trains for its own account. So I guess there were influential people about who wanted the Valpo Local (yes, Amtrak did christen them as the Calumet and Indiana Connection, but I think the long standing nickname remained) to continue running, yet there was no agency to fund it. Moral; let's "bend' the language of intercity to fit the case - and have it supported by Feddybucks in the process.

Indiana's funding of any rail passenger service is marginal at best; "color it lucky'that the South Shore gets the limited funding it does. It got cars (hey that's fun; that's photo ops for the pols) but the infrastructure? well that remains Toonerville Trolley - ride through Michigan City to see what I mean.

In Indiana's pinch penny funding environment (that's anything, folks), I guess the Valpo's luck ran out - but I really should defer to our 'local knowledge" around here known as Mr. Tadman.

  by Tadman
 
Thanks GB. My take on this one is the "penny-smart, pound-foolish" take. In '91, Valpo and NW Indiana didn't have quite the population it has today. The lower population coupled with the "tweener" status of the Dummy (commuter or LD?) makes it clear why the train was canceled - it had no champions in Indianapolis or Washington. At that time, Indiana was also still getting CSS on an even keel, with the bankruptcy only two years prior, so their funding for rail was all used up.

However, the market for a more southeasterly service has returned with a vengeance - CSS traffic is booming, Valpo, Merrilville, and Schererville are bedroom communities, and gas is far more expensive. The theory I always adhere to is the theory of increasing revenues from current markets is far cheaper than the same increase in revenue from a new market. The Dummy being fifteen years dead, I think it's fair to say Valpo is now a new market, and any new service will take big money to implement. NICTD is working on plans to restart a Valpo service, but with the PRR line gone, they've really got their work cut out. Words of dual mode equipment and NICTD-operated service are afloat, so I think it's safe to say Amtrak will not be in on this one. I can't wait to see what "My Man Mitch" (governor's campaign slogan) has in store for us now. I always though the F40PH and twin horizons worked nicely. Having watched how troublesome NY's M8 design process is, I can't imagine how the new dual-mode equipment for diesel and 1500vDC will work - it also has to be clean sheet because I don't think CSS MU's will meet new FRA regs.

See this link for "West Lake Corridor" project:
http://www.nictd-wlc.com/

Also - after my overview of new activities, we may want to keep this discussion historically-oriented, as the new operations are not much Amtrak-related.

  by PRRGuy
 
Earlier, It was mentioned that the former PRR line is gone. Only a few miles thru East Chicago and Whiting were removed, the rest of the line is intact. Also, that missing section can be bypassed by simply using the former NYC main that does tie in near Gary. The (NYC) NS main actually does transfer back to the PRR alignment at M.P.504. So, physically the line could be rebuilt for commuter service, however I don't see NICTD operating a non-connected line to it's current service.

  by doepack
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:I think it was just one more of these "what's a commuter train?". Yes, Amtrak was defined as an intercity carrier by its enabling lesislation , RPSA '70, but then Conrail by its enabling legislation, 3R '74, was precluded from operating passenger trains for its own account. So I guess there were influential people about who wanted the Valpo Local (yes, Amtrak did christen them as the Calumet and Indiana Connection, but I think the long standing nickname remained) to continue running, yet there was no agency to fund it. Moral; let's "bend' the language of intercity to fit the case - and have it supported by Feddybucks in the process
Interesting. FWIW, I recall reading once (not sure of the source now, it's been awhile) where sometime in the late 80's, Amtrak did approach Metra to assume the service. Metra's response basically was this: "Sorry, our jurisdiction only includes our parent agency's (RTA) six-county service area in Illinois. Leave us alone. Indiana? That's South Shore/NICTD territory. If, by some miracle, you can get Indiana to actually fork over a subsidy, feel free to bother them...

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
So long as this passenger rail related, but "fringe Amtrak" discussion remains open, allow me to note that NICTD is not a taxing authority and must look to those clowns that call themselves legislators for their "INDYBUCKS".

Off rails, I once learned that it is part of the legislative record when years ago, Indiana's adoption of the vernacular term "Daylight Savings Time" was proposed, the response of a legislator was "why should we change? the cows and chickens still wake up at the same time".

But back to rails: Many know that, fault notwithstanding, the South Shore's safety record is less than stellar. They are trying to run a contemporary commuter railroad over a Toonerville Trolley infrastructure and the results are in. Incidents I can recall are several encounters of the wrong kind with steel hauling highway trucks at grade X-ings and another at a gauntlet track bridge that involved a head on "meet". There were fatalities in any of these incidents.

For those away from the Chicago area or otherwise "tuning in late", the South Shore was an Insull interurban line that "morphed" of sorts into a Class I. Much of the morphing occurred during 1964 when then -Bethlehem Steel (now Mittal Steel) granted South Shore exclusive access to a new mill at Burns Harbor. The result is ANY car moving in or out of that plant will generate some kind or revenue - line haul or switch to CSSSB. This is why C&O took an interest in acquiring the property. Two other "Insulls" in Chi were the North Shore (CNS&M) and the Roarin' Elgin (CA&E), the Roarin' Elgin is where it belongs - deceased during 1958, but had public funding of mass trainsit been "on the table in Chicago by 1960 instead of 1970, the North Shore would have never died as it did during 1962.

Possibly CSS&SB infrastructure improvements (likely such would qualify for FTA grants - but then there is a local "match" requirement with such) should be of more concern to legislators than whatever time the cows and chickens wake up, but then, the latter doesn't cost $$$$.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by Tadman
 
As one of the few voting Indiana residents here, even though I live in KS for school, I think I can second GB's "clown" description of the politicians without upsetting too many. Our Indianapolis service - partly the Hoosier, partly the pertpetually late Cardinal, is pathetic. However, Indy is a much more vibrant city than Detroit, and at/above the level of St. Louis and Milwaukee. Why is there only one train/day CHI-Indy? There should be three to five trains.

As far as CSS infrastructure, it isn't amazing, but certain things are improving - we've got all new signaling coming online soon, which is a bonus. I think the track is on par with class 1 for ride quality, and the truck accident a while back was motorist error. That grade crossing has been replaced, but the concrete stub is one of my favorite places to photograph and watch Amtrak trains, as well as NS, CP, CSS. The big 1993 accident was human error coupled with an unfortunate but not abnormal track structure - a gantlet track is no different than a diamond or switch. Observe the signals and there's no problem. The recent accident was also operator stupidity. Observe the signals, don't do a rolling meet, and there's no problem. I'd be curious if the NEC'ers around here could help us compare CSS infrastructure to NEC infrastructure, as they are the only govt-owned electric lines, also both allowing freight trains.

Check out that stub, under the Hwy 249 bridge - All michigan trains and eastern-service LD trains roll through at breakneck speed.

  by TomNelligan
 
Tadman wrote: I'd be curious if the NEC'ers around here could help us compare CSS infrastructure to NEC infrastructure, as they are the only govt-owned electric lines, also both allowing freight trains.
I had a chance to ride the South Shore last summer for the first time in a decade, but only as far east as Gary (where I was headed for a RailCats minor league baseball game at the ballpark that as a railfan diversion has both CSS&SB and CSX trains visible behind the outfield fence). No complaints about the ride quality or the speed, but I don't think it's really fair to compare the South Shore infrastructure to the NEC because both the volume of traffic and the amount of money spent on the latter route are much, much greater. Certainly you're not likely to see 125 mph operation out there, and there's no single track on the NEC. A better comparison would probably be the various METRA lines.

  by Lucius Kwok
 
I'm not familiar with the tracks in Indiana, but I know about the Philadelphia-area tracks used by Amtrak, SEPTA, and NJT. Most of the SEPTA lines share tracks with freights to different extents. The West Chester branch sees Amtrak ballast trains between Glen Mills and the NEC. The Norristown line has a short section which is part of the Norfolk Southern high-clearance route, and regularly sees double-stack container trains.

Ride quality varies. SEPTA is in the process of replacing rails that are over 60 years old on its own tracks. After decades of deferred maintenance under PRR, Reading, Penn Central, and finally Conrail, the tracks are finally being brought back to a "state of good repair." There's 695 track miles that SEPTA uses, so that's quite a bit more than the 130.4 track miles that the NICTD uses.

Next year, SEPTA is paying Amtrak to replace the outer tracks on the Amtrak Harrisburg line between Overbrook and Paoli, Pa. This will replace what is probably the worse set of tracks in terms of ride quality.

There's still some poor-quality tracks through Zoo Interlocking which only SEPTA uses, some of which have silt washed down from the embankments into the roadbed. This is another area where local authorities will have to foot the bill for improvements on Amtak property, since only the local trains use it.

  by John_Perkowski
 
MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Looks to me like this belongs in the General Discussion: Commuter and Transit Forum, as it's "not really" Amtrak, and it's "not really" CSS&SB.

A link will remain in the Amtrak forum.

  by Irish Chieftain
 
Off rails, I once learned that it is part of the legislative record when years ago, Indiana's adoption of the vernacular term "Daylight Savings Time" was proposed, the response of a legislator was "why should we change? the cows and chickens still wake up at the same time"
The entire state of Indiana switched to Daylight Savings Time this year, starting last April. There are still a few counties that remain in the Central time zone while most of the state now observes Eastern time.
Many know that, fault notwithstanding, the South Shore's safety record is less than stellar. They are trying to run a contemporary commuter railroad over a Toonerville Trolley infrastructure and the results are in. Incidents I can recall are several encounters of the wrong kind with steel hauling highway trucks at grade X-ings and another at a gauntlet track bridge that involved a head on "meet". There were fatalities in any of these incidents
Noted that none of these seem to have occurred on the street-running segment in Michigan City. There are two companies that use the South Shore's tracks now; the difference between NICTD and CSS&SB is like the difference between LIRR and NY&A (respectively).

As for where NICTD gets its funding, this is from their own page outlining NICTD history:
The Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District (otherwise known as NICTD or "the District") was established in 1977 by an act of the Indiana General Assembly in response to the threatened abandonment of South Shore passenger service. NICTD was specifically created to maintain and preserve commuter rail service between South Bend and Chicago. The District was established to
  1. be a recipient of federal and state grants made for the purpose of renewal of the rolling stock and support facilities of the commuter passenger service then being operated by the Chicago South Shore and South Bend Railroad, and to act as owner and lessor of any new rolling stock and facilities;
  2. receive federal and state monies intended for the financial assistance of the operations of that service; and
  3. market and oversee the service in such areas as determining fare and service levels (in Indiana) and in attracting new riders to the service.

  by Tadman
 
Irish, your observation is more on-point than you realize. The NY&A's parent, Anacostia and Pacific, is the parent of Chicago SouthShore & Southbend Railroad (CSS Freight), and CSS Freight was their first road, being bought out of bankruptcy in 1990 for $41m. If I recall, we have long-term loaned NYA a very good diesel mechanic for a while, don't know if he's still there. A&P seems to be good at operating someone else's freight lines - they do this in quite a few places.

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr.Chieftain, I am of course quite mindful that Indiana finally "got with the program" with respect to the Uniform Time Act of 1966 this past year. The matter to which I refer likely dates at least twenty years ago, but is indicative of the Legislature's mentality, which I presume you note has been concurred by Indiana resident (albeit presently pursuing graduate studies at UofKA), Mr. Tadman.

Naturally, there are mass transit projects that both have and could move forth on the passenger South Shore RR. There is Federal Funding for such through the FTA. However, I believe that agency requires there be a 'match' from local funding (I believe it is 80% Fed 20% Local) , and that is where the Indiana Legislature could use additional "prodding".

Further, I ask you note that my comments regarding South Shore's less than stellar safety were preceeded by 'fault notwithstanding". Of course, I should note that only one Chicago area rail commuter operation, namely IC Electric that SS also uses Kensington-Randolph St, has a grade X-ing free infrastructure on a par of what is taken for granted through much of the New York area.

"Car meets train" incidents happen throughout the Chicagoland area; some don't even make the Six O'Clock (local flash and trash) News (network is at 530P).

Some improvements to CSS have been made, namely through E Chicago during the '50's (I think there was public funding even back then for that one), but to ride through Gary and Michigan City...well that's pretty darned Toonerville Trolley (can't comment about South Bend; quite "TT" when I last rode, but there has been a line relocation since then).

  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone:

I recall the PC-CR Valparaiso service myself. When I first went to Chicago in the mid 70s I recall it was E units with PRR P70 coaches. Later I recall seeing EL coaches also on it in Conrail service. I also remember later when Amtrak stepped in to save this service.

We have schedules from PRR dated 12/15/29 showing seven or so trains each way CHI-VAP. Service to Crown Point was also shown. Later on, we acquired TTs from 9/28/54 and three 1956 changes. We have starting in 1959-60 card TTs showing this service then we have PC TTs dated 3/3/68 and 3/3/71 showing similar service Other trains were no longer shown as well as the Crown Point service that was discontinued on that date. We have card TTs dated 5/1/71-Amtrak's birth day-showing trains 453-455 W and 454-456 E. 4/29/73,8/1/74 and CR 10/31/76. These trains left VAP 5:55 and 6:35 am arriving CHI 7:05 and 7:50 am. and left CHI at 5:05 and 5:40pm arriving VAP at 6:20 and 6:45 pm. The only adjustment was made to #453 to run a little later leaving VAP at 6:00 arriving CHI at 7:10am under CR.

I do not have access to a print scanner; but you all would definitely find these schedules interesting.

MACTRAXX

Re: Valparaiso, IN commuter service...

  by Otto Vondrak
 
Got these in Cincy this weekend... never thought I'd find a CONRAIL timetable for this service!!

Penn Central issue, 1970:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/3807993109/

Conrail issue, 1976
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/3808807184/

Tell me more about the Crown Point service?
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