Ethan Allen Discussion, including Expansion (Burlington)

If and when the line through North Bennington is brought up to passenger standards it would make no sense for Vermont to support a passenger train to Rutland through Saratoga Springs. The logical move here at least the way I see it is for Vermont to support a train between Albany and Burlington via North Bennington and Rutland. It would be a straight shot and speeds of 59 MPH would be possible with proper track. On the other hand it would probably make sense for New York State as well to support an additional train between at least Albany and Saratoga Springs probably in connection with the Saratoga and North Creek service beyond with an across the platform change at Saratoga Springs. Speeds higher than 59 MPH are not possible unless the line is protected by an automatic block signal system or better and this does not exist between North Bennington and Burlington. There are only two sections of track in all of Vermont that have a signal system on them today in Vermont: a short section of the Pan Am mainline through the extreme southwest corner of Vermont and the Connecticut River Line between Brattleboro and White River Junction.
Noel Weaver

I've driven Rutland to Bellows Falls--it would make a lovely train trip, but an incredibly slow one.

jp1822 wrote:I still can't help to think that some how, a connection needs to be made at Springfield to a train east to Boston at some point. I don't think the Lake Shore Limited offers this connection both ways. The Vermonter used to have a pretty good transfer of passengers between a former "Inland Route" Northeast Direct to the north and southbound Vermonter.

Ski train/excursions. There'd be a market for that. I don't know what kind of condition Green Mountain RR is in, but if it's in *acceptable* slow-passenger shape on basic state of repair (30 MPH+ end-to-end), then a weekend excursion train to the slopes from Springfield with a bar car and all the fixins' would probably find its seasonal niche here. Just make sure it's narrow-casted to the ski market, because there isn't a year-round audience yet willing to go that slow.


It's NOT worth the state taking eyes-off-prize on the EAE extension(s) or continuing to ratchet up the Vermonter speeds bit-by-bit. I'm thinking seasonal public-private partnership akin to the upcoming 'skunkworks' MBTA-Cape Rail Hyannis excursions would do just fine here if they shot for something resembling Class 2 track on GMRR. Really, really minimum-impact stuff.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

jp1822 wrote:I still can't help to think that some how, a connection needs to be made at Springfield to a train east to Boston at some point. I don't think the Lake Shore Limited offers this connection both ways. The Vermonter used to have a pretty good transfer of passengers between a former "Inland Route" Northeast Direct to the north and southbound Vermonter.

Ski train/excursions. There'd be a market for that. I don't know what kind of condition Green Mountain RR is in, but if it's in *acceptable* slow-passenger shape on basic state of repair (30 MPH+ end-to-end), then a weekend excursion train to the slopes from Springfield with a bar car and all the fixins' would probably find its seasonal niche here. Just make sure it's narrow-casted to the ski market, because there isn't a year-round audience yet willing to go that slow.


It's NOT worth the state taking eyes-off-prize on the EAE extension(s) or continuing to ratchet up the Vermonter speeds bit-by-bit. I'm thinking seasonal public-private partnership akin to the upcoming 'skunkworks' MBTA-Cape Rail Hyannis excursions would do just fine here if they shot for something resembling Class 2 track on GMRR. Really, really minimum-impact stuff.

Green Mountain RR used to run occasional excursions all the way to Rutland. Typically it would just run regular excursions out of Bellows Falls to somewhere around Ludlow. But occasionally it would run the entire distance. And I think freight still moves on this line regularly.

The GMRC is still an active freight line, there is little to no excursion activity on the line however. Right now we run 3 days a week, with extra's as needed. The line is slow, curvy, steep, and on light rail. Ski trains have been talked about before, but have never panneded out. It is mostly 10/15, with a few short sections of 25/30, so it is brutally slow.

As stated by F-line to Dudley via Park, it is a much better use of state and federal money to get the Vermonter extended to MTL, and the EA to BD and on to a connection to the Vermonter and MTL in Essex or St. Albans. There are direct bus connections at various stations along both routes for skiers going to Killington, Okemo, Mt. Snow, Mad River etc, perhaps adding the baggage cars back on might be a good start to capturing additional skier traffic before adding an additional train.

If the Ethan Allen is rerouted via Bennington, i would assume NY would welcome the small expense of extending an Albany-NYP train to Saratoga given the ridership potential there between the springs, the racetrack, and Skidmore. It adds the bonus of giving Schenectady an extra frequency as well. Fort Edward might make an even better terminus to allow for vacationers from NYC to the Lake George region.

From the Rutland Herald 1/31/2013-

"Amtrak service to Burlington gets a boost in the proposed transportation budget.

Gov. Peter Shumlin pledged last year to have a rail connection between Rutland and Burlington by 2017, and the proposed budget for next year funds projects edging the state toward that goal.

“What’s most important is the governor has put this in his budget,” said Rep. Herb Russell, D-Rutland City. “There are places — clean water, for example — Chairman (David) Deen (of the Fish and Wildlife Committee) was furious he didn’t get all the money he wanted for clean water. Rail is clearly a priority for this administration.”

More here-http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20 ... /701309949

rovetherr wrote:From the Rutland Herald 1/31/2013-

"Amtrak service to Burlington gets a boost in the proposed transportation budget.

Gov. Peter Shumlin pledged last year to have a rail connection between Rutland and Burlington by 2017, and the proposed budget for next year funds projects edging the state toward that goal.

“What’s most important is the governor has put this in his budget,” said Rep. Herb Russell, D-Rutland City. “There are places — clean water, for example — Chairman (David) Deen (of the Fish and Wildlife Committee) was furious he didn’t get all the money he wanted for clean water. Rail is clearly a priority for this administration.”

More here-http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20 ... /701309949

This is pretty significant. First time that I've seen an incremental approach used that doesn't have the guarantee of future funding. Essentially what the Governor is saying is, "this is so popular that the closer we get it will be nearly impossible to stop." That's pretty remarkable.

As I recall, they had Amtrak service on this route a while back, didn't they? I remember
seeing the signs and the waiting benches in Middlebury when I was up there doing some
work about 10 years ago. At any rate, I think they would need some track work to make
this viable; the track between Middlebury and Burlington was decent, not great, could
have used some CWR. Certainly a doable idea; not sure how much ridership they'd get

trainhq wrote:As I recall, they had Amtrak service on this route a while back, didn't they? I remember
seeing the signs and the waiting benches in Middlebury when I was up there doing some
work about 10 years ago. At any rate, I think they would need some track work to make
this viable; the track between Middlebury and Burlington was decent, not great, could
have used some CWR. Certainly a doable idea; not sure how much ridership they'd get

No, there's never been Amtrak service in Middlebury. There was briefly commuter rail service from Charlotte to Burlington in the early 2000's.

When the Ethan Allen first got started, the State did sponsor a short train of sorts that ran from Rutland to Middlebury and on up to Burlington.

It was dropped within a short amount of time - largely due to the long trip time and poor patronage I would assume.

Then with the Route 7 Highway widening in the South Burlington area to Shelbourne, the State thought it would be wise to offer rail commuter service from downtown Burlington to Charlotte/Vergenes. Not sure exactly how far south it operated, but it was not all the way to Middlebury. And there were signs put up for the is service.

I have seen signs in Middlebury for train service, but not sure if that was for the Ethan Allen shuttle train that was put in place OR the fact that the Green Mountain Flyer used to operate out of Middlebury at one time for excursions. And occasionally these excursions did run from Middlebury all the way to Burlington!

Bottom line, Amtrak needs to get the Ethan Allen Express to downtown Burlington, as it would now serve descent patronage if they could get the trip time down.

I just stumbled upon this topic tonight, and read all five pages so far. Sorry if my post jumps all over...

The debate of running the proposed EA service through Bennington or Castleton, if the train was to run through Bennington, would it really save that much more time, rather than following the current route and just changing ends on Rutland to continue the rest of the way to Burlington? Do a lot of folks use the Castleton stop for the local college?

Then, the debate on where to lay up the train for the return trip. On the northbound, currently, where does the train get it's last splash of fuel before it gets to Rutland? Someone mentioned that it does not get fueled in Rutland for the return trip south. Not sure you'd need to refuel the engines for a southbound trip out of Burlington, so you wouldn't even need to build a fuel dock. It was suggested to run the EA to St Albans, but I don't think they'd be able to store two trains there. The Vermonter isn't stored in Italy yard. It's stored on the leg of the wye track behind the round house.

Would it be worth it to run the EA up to Montreal? If it was to be done, the way it sounds is it wouldn't be done until the Vermonter is extended back up to Montreal. Would it be worth it to run the EA all the way up to Montreal, with the Adirondack and the Vermonter/Montrealer already in the mix?

I like the idea of the Albany to Saratoga Springs shuttle, or extension of Albany service. The Saratoga and North Creek needs a year-round Amtrak connection, at least Friday and Saturday. Currently, they run a 10AM train north from Saratoga Springs to North Creek, and that train does not have an Amtrak connection. The earliest Amtrak train to get to Saratoga Springs arrives almost two hours after the NB SNCRR has left. I think both Amtrak and the SNCRR could benefit from a direct connection with Amtrak. I bet a decent amount of people would use a direct train trip from south of Albany to get up to North Creek to get up to Gore Mt.

How many stations were built for the early 2000 Burlington commuter rail project? Those could easily be used for the Amtrak service.

jp1822 wrote:When the Ethan Allen first got started, the State did sponsor a short train of sorts that ran from Rutland to Middlebury and on up to Burlington.

It was dropped within a short amount of time - largely due to the long trip time and poor patronage I would assume.

Then with the Route 7 Highway widening in the South Burlington area to Shelbourne, the State thought it would be wise to offer rail commuter service from downtown Burlington to Charlotte/Vergenes. Not sure exactly how far south it operated, but it was not all the way to Middlebury. And there were signs put up for the is service.

I have seen signs in Middlebury for train service, but not sure if that was for the Ethan Allen shuttle train that was put in place OR the fact that the Green Mountain Flyer used to operate out of Middlebury at one time for excursions. And occasionally these excursions did run from Middlebury all the way to Burlington!

Bottom line, Amtrak needs to get the Ethan Allen Express to downtown Burlington, as it would now serve descent patronage if they could get the trip time down.

The Champlain Flyer never made it further south than Charlotte (not even to Vergenes). I assume you're talking about the Sugarbush Express for the Rutland/Middlebury-Burlington train; I think it predated the Ethan Allen and was privately-owned?

The Sugarbush Express was operated by the VTR, for the Sugarbush Ski Resort I believe. I know it made stops in Middlebury (the platform is still there, in the middle of the yard) and Vergennes (behind the Kennedy Building), not too sure about further north since that was before my interest in railroads really took off. If you look closely in the vestibules of some of the stainless passenger cars we use you can still see the outline of the Sugarbush logo. I want to reply to SlackControl as well, but I have to head into work and don't have internet access. For some reason they don't want us dispatchers surfing the internet! So I will reply when I get back.

SlackControl wrote:I just stumbled upon this topic tonight, and read all five pages so far. Sorry if my post jumps all over...

The debate of running the proposed EA service through Bennington or Castleton, if the train was to run through Bennington, would it really save that much more time, rather than following the current route and just changing ends on Rutland to continue the rest of the way to Burlington? Do a lot of folks use the Castleton stop for the local college?

The reasoning behind the proposed realignment of the EA to the western side of VT has little, if anything, to do with saving time, and a lot to do with serving a section of the state that has for at least the last few decades felt that it has been left out of the mix when it comes to nearly every decision made in Montpelier. One very tangible way of showing that the southern, and western, side of the state is not on the back-burner policy wise is by having Amtrak come whistling through. VT state politics at its finest! Another reason for the reroute is that VT pays for the train, and wants to get more miles in the state served.

As for the Castleton stop, it does see some use, more than a few others in the state according to the Amtrak 2012 Fact Sheet for Vermont. However, according to table 6 (page 10 of the .pdf) of the latest version of the ABRB study the loss of ridership from not stopping in Castleton will be more than offset by the additional stops in Manchester, N. Bennington, and Mechanicsville.

Then, the debate on where to lay up the train for the return trip. On the northbound, currently, where does the train get it's last splash of fuel before it gets to Rutland? Someone mentioned that it does not get fueled in Rutland for the return trip south. Not sure you'd need to refuel the engines for a southbound trip out of Burlington, so you wouldn't even need to build a fuel dock. It was suggested to run the EA to St Albans, but I don't think they'd be able to store two trains there. The Vermonter isn't stored in Italy yard. It's stored on the leg of the wye track behind the round house.

Unless there is a large delay, the loco is fueled in New York City. The stop in Albany is just that, a station stop, with no servicing. If the layover was to be Burlington, then fueling would not be an issue since we already use a mobile truck to fuel our engines there. One more certainly wouldn't be a problem.

Would it be worth it to run the EA up to Montreal? If it was to be done, the way it sounds is it wouldn't be done until the Vermonter is extended back up to Montreal. Would it be worth it to run the EA all the way up to Montreal, with the Adirondack and the Vermonter/Montrealer already in the mix?

I don't think that it would be necessary to run the EA all the way to Montreal. Especially if the Vermonter is already going there. As long as the schedules could be set up to accommodate a transfer from the EA to the Vermonter at either Essex Jct or St. Albans, and vice versa, there should be no need to have both trains crossing the border.

I like the idea of the Albany to Saratoga Springs shuttle, or extension of Albany service. The Saratoga and North Creek needs a year-round Amtrak connection, at least Friday and Saturday. Currently, they run a 10AM train north from Saratoga Springs to North Creek, and that train does not have an Amtrak connection. The earliest Amtrak train to get to Saratoga Springs arrives almost two hours after the NB SNCRR has left. I think both Amtrak and the SNCRR could benefit from a direct connection with Amtrak. I bet a decent amount of people would use a direct train trip from south of Albany to get up to North Creek to get up to Gore Mt.

An interesting idea, I would be interested to see what the numbers would look like. During racing season there would be call for additional trains, most certainly.

How many stations were built for the early 2000 Burlington commuter rail project? Those could easily be used for the Amtrak service.

There were 3 stations constructed, Charlotte, Shelburne, and South Burlington. All are low level platforms, and in my opinion Shelburne and South Burlington are too close to Burlington to be used as Amtrak stops. Charlotte would be far enough away, but the station is on a siding, and would require any train using it to throw three switches, two of them a crossover set, which is an absolute schedule killer when dealing with Amtrak (or anyone actually). I think north of Rutland, you will see Middlebury, and perhaps Brandon and Vergennes as stops. The last two are possibilities, as they maintain roughly a 30 min run, plus or minus, between stations, but I haven't seen anything in writing about proposed stops north of Rutland.