Engineer for a Day

Several years ago....actually more like over 10 years ago, as I was still in school,
I read about a railroad in Novato and maybe one in CT that had a program where they taught you to run a locomotive on their tracks.

That was all prior to 9-11. But have the tides changed or do programs like that still exist?

mirrodie wrote:Several years ago....actually more like over 10 years ago, as I was still in school,
I read about a railroad in Novato and maybe one in CT that had a program where they taught you to run a locomotive on their tracks.

That was all prior to 9-11. But have the tides changed or do programs like that still exist?

There are quite a few. This is the one in Connecticut:

http://www.essexsteamtrain.com/throttle.html

They come down to OSB, if memory serves.

There are actual schools out there where you can learn this.

There are a couple of private schools in California where you can learn to operate locomotives. You need to do a little research and make sure they have regular-sized railroad locomotives, and not industrial-type units.

There are also a couple of railroad-operated schools. These will teach you using state-of-the art simulators before putting you in a live locomotive. BNSF operates an excellent school in Overland Park, Kansas on the Johnson County Community College. I have taken training there myself. NS operates its own school, you have to pay them to go to this one, even if you are their employee.

There is also at least one museum where you pay a very steep price to operate a locomotive on non-common carrier trackage. If you are going to pay to do this, I think you would be better off doing this somewhere that will qualify you to earn a living this way.

Then there are museums where you can join and eventually get to operate the equipment. The Essex train museum mentioned is a good one. Other museums that do this are the Mid-Continent Railway Museum at North Freedom, WI; the Illinois Railroad Museum at Union, IL, and the Colorado Railroad Museum at Golden, CO. I'm sure there are many more. Be prepared to work before you get to "play".

If you are looking for a career path, most smaller railroads promote and train their locomotive engineers out of the ranks of their other employees. A typical progression would be brakeman-conductor-engineer. Bear in mind that these companies will usually put employees into train service even from other departments if they express an interest in working on a train crew.

Les

Desertdweller wrote:There are actual schools out there where you can learn this.

There are a couple of private schools in California where you can learn to operate locomotives. You need to do a little research and make sure they have regular-sized railroad locomotives, and not industrial-type units.

There are also a couple of railroad-operated schools. These will teach you using state-of-the art simulators before putting you in a live locomotive. BNSF operates an excellent school in Overland Park, Kansas on the Johnson County Community College. I have taken training there myself. NS operates its own school, you have to pay them to go to this one, even if you are their employee.

There is also at least one museum where you pay a very steep price to operate a locomotive on non-common carrier trackage. If you are going to pay to do this, I think you would be better off doing this somewhere that will qualify you to earn a living this way.

Then there are museums where you can join and eventually get to operate the equipment. The Essex train museum mentioned is a good one. Other museums that do this are the Mid-Continent Railway Museum at North Freedom, WI; the Illinois Railroad Museum at Union, IL, and the Colorado Railroad Museum at Golden, CO. I'm sure there are many more. Be prepared to work before you get to "play".

If you are looking for a career path, most smaller railroads promote and train their locomotive engineers out of the ranks of their other employees. A typical progression would be brakeman-conductor-engineer. Bear in mind that these companies will usually put employees into train service even from other departments if they express an interest in working on a train crew.

Les

"PAY"????????????? When did they start that? When *I* went to Southern's 'railroad boot camp' at Mc Donough, Ga, they paid ME, not the other way round. It wasn't much money in 1981, but they paid US, billeted us at a local motel, albeit it the WORST one around, and gave us a meal card with which we could visit the "sticky-fingers cafe". The food was atrocious (shudder), and the tables had little, mysterious "lumps" on them that I da'st not even think what it might've been. Tables were also "sticky" with a sort of film on them. Honestly, I was shocked that that state (Georgia) even allowed such a place to operate, and it was so bad the students of the school (Training Center) presented a petition to the Director and a threat that, if something was not done, we'd go to the State Board of Health and get the restaurant shut down. The director visited, saw what was happening, and things changed----somewhat. At the least, the tables got cleaned and the lumps disappeared. The food? Well.............it remained basically the same greasy, artery-clogging fare (EEERRRRP!). Going out to McDonalds became a TREAT to get away from it! ON $150 per week (ouch), it was like springing for Fillet Mignon and we looked forward to it every Thursday when it became a habit for us to gather and, instead of visiting the motel restaurant (the hamburgers, you could lube a Chevy with 'em they were so greasy!), we'd get in a car and drive over to Mickey D's for a 'night out on the town'----and you KNOW that's bad when a MCD's is the best 'action' one can find in a small town like McDonough!!!! I mean, they roll up the sidewalks at dusk there!

Anyway, I had always assumed that NS paid their employees to attend the Training Center, as I had never heard of anybody PAYING to go there. Oh well, things change! That's why I've always looked askance at the idea of prospective employees going to some "engineer's school" and paying to get a job. *I* didn't have to do it.

GF

GF,

After making my career as a locomotive engineer, it's hard to get my mind around the idea of paying someone to get to do the work I was paid for doing. It reminded me of a situation I encountered on the DM&E.

One of my conductors came to us at start-up from the D&RGW. One of the assignments he worked on the D&RGW was as a conductor on the narrow-guage Silverton train.

He told me about a day when one of his passengers asked him a pointed question. "Do you get paid for doing this?" the passenger, an Englishman, asked him.

"Of course", he answered. "It's my job."

"Well." the passenger said, "you shouldn't."
"In my country, people pay to do the job you are doing. You shouldn't get paid for doing this!"

The conductor was almost at a loss for words. "But how would I support my family?"

The story about the NS school was related to me by more than one fellow engineer. Apparently, the railroad feels the employees will be more motivated to succeed if they have a financial investment in their training. It sounds a little strange to me, too, but maybe it isn't so different than paying to go to college.

I went to the BNSF school as an employee of the holding company that owned the railroad I was working for. Yes, I got paid for going. The food at Johnson County Community College was very good, much better than most campus fare. I had to buy my meals but they were at fast-food prices. The quality of the food was way above fast-food standards. Evening meals off campus? You are in Kansas City, one of the great BBQ capitals of the world!

I worked with a couple guys (on difference assignments) that had gone to one of the private railroad schools. They both told me they thought the guy who ran the school hated railroads. He delighted in doing things like calling his students unexpectedly out at three am to report for duty.
Another graduate of this place showed up at a short line I worked at. He told us he felt he was qualified to run 10,000 ton plus unit trains with EMD SD70 and 90 MAC locomotives and GE ES and Dash 9 series locomotives. I asked him what type of locomotives he had actual experience operating. Turned out his experience was in a "critter" type industrial switcher.

I won't name this school to protect the guilty. But do your due diligence before signing up.

Les

I can "see" it and *not* see it at the same time. When I went in '81, I was already an employee---had been for 4 years. I was furloughed when the Track Material yard was moved to Irondale, AL. I didn't stand for a job---even if I wanted to transfer. But Southern had a policy then that they would place existing/furloughed employees in another craft when vacancies occured. This permitted one to keep his "current connection" and the Personnel guy interviewed each one of that were cut off asking what we would be interested in doing. I told him I'd take most anything. Meantime, they needed a Relief Clerk up in the office at the same facility, and I received a call from my then-boss, Mr. Dover. Would I be interested in being a relief clerk? It was single-point seniority, had one clerk that could not be bumped by a Line of Road clerk. I couldn't accumulate clerical seniority, but I would be working temporarily until they found something else for me. This also created a lot of envy among the other laborers---some of whom had higher laborer's seniority than I. MUCH higher. But the company could choose anybody they wanted to because there was no connection between the laborers in the clerical agreement tho they, too, were under the then-BRAC union. OH, the guys didn't like it" A-TALL" that this youngster waltzed in, got furloughed and next thing you know, he's dumped his filthy coveralls for casual slacks, and the remaining laborers were still doing manual labor (Stores Department). I can't say I blame them, but I was not about to turn down work, so long it wasn't "scab" work, and I didn't see being offered a job by the company because they obviously liked me (at the time) as "scabbing". But it did not sit well with the "boys" in the yard, let me tell you!
After about a year of this, the Chief Clerk, Freight Operations called me at the Stores Department and told me that I "had been selected" to attend training at McDonough, Ga and I was to report in two weeks! It felt like I was in the Guard or Reserves the way it was presented. I didn't have to accept it, but it felt like it would've been a mark against me if I didn't. And the job, tho interesting, neat & fairly secure, led absolutely nowhere because of the isolated "no seniority" situation. The only way out was a promotion--and that wasn't a sure thing. I could be "stuck" forever there. So I agreed to accept LoR training. After all, I still had my Storehouse seniority (because I was cut off on that roster), and if anything ever opened up there, I could bid it. I STILL had credit for vacation and sick leave. But I was PAID $150/week for attending school. Not much...hardly enough to get by. To be asked to PAY for training, that would be absurd. So that is also why I find it hard to accept that there are "railroad U" schools that cost thousands to attend. To me, it's kinda like those Multi-level Marketing Schemes and "home" businesses with a "down line" where you must PAY to work. Its ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!

But that's my story of getting into railroading in a huge way. When I marked up and signed up for vacations, some of the regular clerks who had, indeed, been hired before me ON the clerical roster, said, "Wait a minute...you just got hired, you ain't got no 2 weeks vacation".

"Oh yes I have!!!! You're forgetting: I've been working for the company for 4 years already!!!! I'll get another week NEXT year!!!!!!

GF

GF,

It seems to me that it is wrong to have to pay for training IF you are being trained by the same company you are working for. After all, you are putting in time for the employer. And, you are covered by benefits that would apply if they were paying you, like insurance, vacation time accumulation, and seniority. If you got injured during that training, you should be covered as for any other on-the-job injury.

Maybe some reader who has actually attended the NS school can explain how that works.

I don't think any of my BNSF classmates had to pay to go to the Overland Park school. My company paid for my tuition, course materials, and simulator time. I drove a company vehicle (the school is 500 miles from my home), bought fuel on a company credit card, and had an expense account for reimbursement of my meals. In addition, I was paid for my time. I stayed in a on-campus student hotel, also at company expense.

But if you are doing this on your own to gain certifiable job skills, it would not be any different than paying to go to any other trade school or college. If you can actually use this diploma to get an engineer's job, it would probably be worth it. Certainly, it would be faster than working your way up through the ranks. Just be real careful that what you are learning will actually qualify you to run real locomotives on a real railroad.

The number of qualified locomotive engineers is actually a pretty small community. The more skills you have, the better jobs you will be qualified for. If you can run current model road locomotives, especially using DP power, you can get lots of opportunities (if you don't have a disastrous job record). Having a current engineer's certificate means a lot: it is usually the first question you will be asked. It costs a railroad a lot of money to train a locomotive engineer, even if they do not have to send him away to school. The time spent in study and running as a student engineer is basically wasted pay for a railroad, as the student isn't producing anything as he sits in class. Running the locomotive always involves the presence of a certified engineer in the cab, so the railroad gets to pay two people to do the job of one.
Because of these reasons, railroads will generally hire qualified engineers before they will train their own, IF they can get them.

My advice to any would-be locomotive engineers tempted to go the pay-to-learn route on their own, would be to get some names and contact information of former graduates. Ask these people if the school actually helped their careers, or if it was a rip-off. If the school will not give you the contact info, they should at least be willing to give you the names of railroads who hired their grads. Go to those railroads in person if you have to and ask around to find the graduates. They will steer you in the right direction. If it helped them, they will be proud to say so. If they got burned, they will be happy to let you know.

GF, I bet those clerks hated to see you exercise your vacation rights. I would have told them, if they were unhappy with the arrangement, they should go talk to the BRAC about it. But then, that's just the way I did things.

Les

Desertdweller wrote:GF,

...........................................................................................

GF, I bet those clerks hated to see you exercise your vacation rights. I would have told them, if they were unhappy with the arrangement, they should go talk to the BRAC about it. But then, that's just the way I did things.

Les

Yes, they did. They weren't used to having "current" employees come onto the seniority roster. Now, I was on the bottom of the roster at first, so it didn't really affect them, but what DID gripe them was, the Stores roster and the Clerk's roster were two different ones. Storehouse clerks couldn't roll the LoR clerks; the yard clerks couldn't bump stores clerks! It was a good deal for the storehouse folks. And the hours were choice: 7AM to 3:30 PM with (get this, Les) SATURDAY and SUNDAY rest days! The yard clerks, especially the low timers and Extra Board folks were looking longingly towards the Material Management department and had long coveted those jobs. What made them pout was, they were trying to get BRAC (now TCU) and the railroad to change that. Their position was, it wasn't FAIR to allow low-timers to hold such "choice" jobs while they were forced to the Extra Board, and they were confident they would get it changed.

"Wait 'til we get this fixed soon, and I'm a gonna 'roll' YOU," they said, "The union's gonna fix this soon!!!!!"

I replied, "Well, even if you 'dovetail' into the seniority list, I STILL have seniority over you because you're forgetting; I've been marked up for 5 years on the Laborer's list!!!!! You STILL can't 'roll' ME!!!!!" LMAO!

(POUT!) "OH, I forgot!"

At the time I was carrying "dual seniority" because I had been furloughed from the Stores Dept, and was marked up on the Piedmont Division clerical roster, Charlotte, NC. So, in that situation, *I* was sitting pretty insofar as somebody coming from the outside and bumping me. I pretty much had first dibs on the Storehouse----which is why I bid back to it in '84. Those daylight hours and weekend rest days were just too much to pass up! The yard clerks just didn't like it!!!!
It was the right thing, too, for by the time I retired, they had consolidated/abolished most of the clerks' jobs. The yard and freight offices were silent.
They eventually combined the two rosters when Southern merged with NW, and some NW employees transferred when they closed the Princeton WV Shops. By that time I was so far up the roster, it really didn't affect me and the local clerks didn't have "whiskers" to touch me. At retirement, I was #2 on the seniority list! SWEET!
GF

GF,

Good for you! It seems the biggest union enthusiasts are the same guys who holler the loudest when the rules work against them.

I remember when I was first starting out, I was the lowest man on the seniority roster who actually had any seniority. My boss, the ornery Trainmaster, had a son who was also on the clerks' seniority roster. He had been around longer than me, but lost his seniority each year as he returned to college and was unable to cover the jobs he stood for.

I would bid on bulletined assignments, but I didn't have enough seniority to get the jobs. My bids would also generate nasty letters from the Trainmaster, challenging my fitness for these positions. Of course, the BRAC sat on their hands and did nothing about this harassment.

Finally, a position I considered pretty choice came open. I did not bid on it, as I was too discouraged by not being able get the jobs I bid on.

In this situation, though, no one else bid on it either (it was in a backwater location). As I was the low man on the totem pole, I was forced on the job.
The Trainmaster sent me a letter requiring me to report. He thought either I would refuse the assignment and lose my rights, or accept the position and be out of his hair.

I felt kind of like Bryer Rabbit being forced into the briar patch. Not only did it me out of his hair, it got him out of mine.

I had to relocate, but that was no problem to a 23 year-old who can fit all his earthly possessions into the trunk of a 1964 Mercury Monterey.

When I arrived, I found the position was being covered by another college student who would lose his seniority every fall when he returned to school. He was a good sport about it, and helped me break in.

One evening I was at his house, drinking beer with him on the roof of his porch.
"Don't get too close to the edge, Les", he cautioned. "If you fall off my roof, no one would believe I didn't push you to save my job!"

Les

Desertdweller wrote:GF,

Good for you! It seems the biggest union enthusiasts are the same guys who holler the loudest when the rules work against them.

I remember when I was first starting out, I was the lowest man on the seniority roster who actually had any seniority. My boss, the ornery Trainmaster, had a son who was also on the clerks' seniority roster. He had been around longer than me, but lost his seniority each year as he returned to college and was unable to cover the jobs he stood for.

I would bid on bulletined assignments, but I didn't have enough seniority to get the jobs. My bids would also generate nasty letters from the Trainmaster, challenging my fitness for these positions. Of course, the BRAC sat on their hands and did nothing about this harassment.

Finally, a position I considered pretty choice came open. I did not bid on it, as I was too discouraged by not being able get the jobs I bid on.

In this situation, though, no one else bid on it either (it was in a backwater location). As I was the low man on the totem pole, I was forced on the job.
The Trainmaster sent me a letter requiring me to report. He thought either I would refuse the assignment and lose my rights, or accept the position and be out of his hair.

I felt kind of like Bryer Rabbit being forced into the briar patch. Not only did it me out of his hair, it got him out of mine.

I had to relocate, but that was no problem to a 23 year-old who can fit all his earthly possessions into the trunk of a 1964 Mercury Monterey.

When I arrived, I found the position was being covered by another college student who would lose his seniority every fall when he returned to school. He was a good sport about it, and helped me break in.

One evening I was at his house, drinking beer with him on the roof of his porch.
"Don't get too close to the edge, Les", he cautioned. "If you fall off my roof, no one would believe I didn't push you to save my job!" Les

They always told us to bid on any and everything-----even if you don't think you would stand for it. I got one Porter's job---my first "permanent" assignment on the LoR roster---because nobody wanted the hours: 8 PM to 5 AM w/ Tues & Wed rest days. It was to drive the crew truck, haul crews, run errands and clean bathrooms, load baggage on the passenger train. It was actually a pretty good little billet. There were no bosses around at night except for the Terminal Trainmaster and he was a pretty good Joe, having been promoted from Conductor. AS long as you did your job, he could not care less. I stayed "caught up" most nights after the last train was loaded and gone, and there were only a few crews to pick up and deliver. Sometimes they would send me out to Krispy Kreme for donuts.

Alas, it didn't last long. After a few months, the "cut worm" showed up and the 'rolls' started, and I was bumped back to the Extra Board.

GF

GF,

There is something creepy about the idea that there are people who would willingly pay big bucks to do your job. But these guys are not really doing that job, they are paying a pile of money to get to experience only the best parts of the job in a safe, protected setting.

It is like when I was a little kid and my father would let me sit in his lap as he drove the tractor. I could steer the thing, but as soon as I started to veer off course, his hands would take the wheel. And, of course, for anything beyond steering, he handled. Yet I could proudly say "I drove the tractor!"

These guys are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. A more realistic "experience" would involve (after they had paid their hundreds of dollars, of course), being told that no one knows yet when they will be needed, but make themselves available anytime in the next 24hrs. on 1 1/2 hr. notice. Come prepared to spend up to 12 hrs.

You may (or may not) be subject to random drug/alcohol testing. So better not drink that beer. Better think twice about eating that poppyseed roll with your dinner.

Don't forget to know all the rules. You may be asked.

Better bring a lunch and plenty of coffee. Keep that cell phone turned off. Be sure you have a flashlight or battery lantern. You may have to inspect a set of locomotives in the pitch dark. Or rain. Or both.

Be careful how you start and stop that thing. If you get a knuckle, you are going to have a pissed-off crew. Anything worse, and you are going to have some explaining to do.

Don't go too fast. But don't go too slow either. One time I got chewed for averaging 11 mph on a 60 mile run on 10 mph track. On the same railroad, I caught it for averaging 9 mph. This was on a railroad that didn't believe in working speedometers. You had to time yourself by the mile posts as you went.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

I'm glad I did what I did for a living. The good parts certainly outweighed the bad. But to fork over hundreds of dollars to get to be an "engineer" for a day, without the hundreds of hours of training to make that qualifying trip, or without the serious responsibilities that go with it and physical and mental risks involved, is not realistic at all.

To have to pay a school to teach you to be a locomotive engineer (or any other railroad position) is money wasted unless they actually teach you the things you will need to know to handle a real train on a real railroad. Running a light locomotive is easy. Handling a train isn't.

Handling a locomotive in switching service is a skill onto itself. Getting the speed right in making good couplings requires a lot of concentration. It will be a little different for each locomotive set. You just have to develop a feel for it, especially when hanging onto a heavy cut of cars.

The difference between running a locomotive in road service and in switching service is like the difference between handling an 18-wheeler on an open highway, and backing one down a narrow alley. Both are part of truck driving, but so different.

Les

I did the essex steam train "your hand on the throttle" last fall. It was well worth the money. If I can scrape together the money, i'de do it again. I had a blast. You have a brief learning session with one of there engineers and then its into the cab of a 2-8-2 and you are the one doing it. The teacher is right behind you giving you instructions.

I'm glad you enjoyed the experience. The Essex Steam Train is one of the better tourist operations.
I was glad to get a cab ride on that railroad. I was also glad to get to sit on the cushions and watch.

On a real student run, your teacher is more apt to be sitting opposite you, silently grading your performance.

I've personally trained 25 locomotive engineers. I give them plenty of classroom time first, then have them do a walk-around of the locomotive, explaining to me what the parts are, how they work and how to check them.

Then they ride with me a few trips, while I answer questions and explain what I am doing and why.

Then they get to drive. I'll be right there by them for awhile, like the engineer on the Essex train was with you. As I become more confident in their ability, I'll back off to where I'm just observing from the other side. Ready to answer questions or intervene if they get in trouble, but mostly just observing their progress. After all, if they get in a bad situation, it's my responsibility.

Finally, after they make their qualification run (during which I'll silently observe and grade), if they pass (and they all did), I'll work the ground with them for a week with them running the power. By this point, they already have their certification. But I can give them advice from the perspective of the ground man.

When they begin their training, I let them know that they are learning a trade not everyone can do. Some people just can't do this stuff, and don't feel bad if you cannot. There are plenty of good conductors and brakemen who just cannot handle a train as an engineer.

Les

Les, I couldn't help but comment.

here is something creepy about the idea that there are people who would willingly pay big bucks to do your job. But these guys are not really doing that job, they are paying a pile of money to get to experience only the best parts of the job in a safe, protected setting.

-If its only a 300-400 bucks, then I guess its entirely up to the individual if they want to experience that in a safe setting, isn't it? Its no different from the heritage airplane flights near my office where folks pay a few hundred dollars to the museum to fly in an old warbird airplane and dress up in 1940s US military gear and fly around simulating what our conditions mighth ave been like when our Vets flew. Likewise, some people would rather blow monthly payments on a Bentley or BMW, yet live in crappy homes. To each, their own, yes?

These guys are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. A more realistic "experience" would involve (after they had paid their hundreds of dollars, of course), being told that no one knows yet when they will be needed, but make themselves available anytime in the next 24hrs. on 1 1/2 hr. notice. Come prepared to spend up to 12 hrs.

You probably have a good business idea and your idea would likely be a better experience. I would love to see a business model evolve from that, where you could be an engineer for a day and get into more real situations.

But to fork over hundreds of dollars to get to be an "engineer" for a day, without the hundreds of hours of training to make that qualifying trip, or without the serious responsibilities that go with it and physical and mental risks involved, is not realistic at all.

Personally I have in interest in what is like. I know I wouldnt get the real everyday experience but I'd rather blow my few hundred dollars on an experience.

To that end, I worked on the railroad as a clerk in my college days and I am glad I was able to get my feet wet. I was also fortunate enough to get a glimpse of the lifestyle and instead chose another profession. However, I've always been fascinated with the physics of what makes large things move.

So I've flown in Boeing jet simulators (and a few private aircraft) and now would like to perhaps experience a locomotive.

Handling a locomotive in switching service is a skill onto itself. Getting the speed right in making good couplings requires a lot of concentration. It will be a little different for each locomotive set. You just have to develop a feel for it, especially when hanging onto a heavy cut of cars.

True. One can only simulate that with computer simulations.

When they begin their training, I let them know that they are learning a trade not everyone can do. Some people just can't do this stuff, and don't feel bad if you cannot. There are plenty of good conductors and brakemen who just cannot handle a train as an engineer.

Well, no offense but its not rocket science. With proper training, study and supervision its possible. Same could be said of my medical training. I feel its easy but it sure didnt seem easy those first few years. And I am still learning after years in practice.

Sorry this took such a tangent.

I was really looking to see what tourist railroads still do that Engineer for a Day training. in my opinion, its a decent experience and the museum always wins as they get much needed funds...

"Not rocket science".

No, it isn't. But it does require a certain aptitude that not everyone has. Not everyone can do it, probably there are rocket scientists who can't.

You need to develop a feel for what the machine is doing. You need to be able to judge speed by looking at the ground.

You need to plan ahead, so you run the train rather than the train running you.

You need to be able to do several things at once.

You need to be aware of where the slack is in your train.

You need to be able to work time/speed/distance equations in your head.

You need to be always cognizant of where you train is. Including where the rear of your train is.

You need to be able to judge mass in motion, in order to gently stop the train where you want it to.

Some of this is textbook, but a lot of it is intuitive. It can only be learned by doing it, and not everybody can.

Medicine isn't rocket science either, but not everyone can do it.

In fact, I think rocket science is rather overrated.

Les