Empire Station Complex, aka New York Pennsylvania Station

This article appearing in today's Times, certainly suggests that this project could well represent "the office's last stand".

Fair Use:

.In a bid to reshape Midtown Manhattan, Gov. Kathy Hochul and New York State officials are pushing ahead with one of the largest real estate development projects in American history: 10 towers of mostly offices around Penn Station, the busiest transit center in the country.

The buildings would help pay for the renovation of the dreary underground station, the reason officials have said they are seeking the additions to the skyline. But the plan is moving forward amid severe uncertainty gripping the office market: Many companies are trying to reduce their real estate footprint as workers continue to clock in from home

It appears that Amtrak, developers, and Gov. Hochul are all prepared to make such.

But first, I continue to ask, "what about the infrastructure - the stuff people don't see - needed to support such"?

Has Moynihan Station improved the overnight layover experience for travelers? Amtrak.com offered me an itinerary by which I would arrive at NYP well after dark, spend 5 hours there, and continue away in the morning. Once, upon a time, I had such a layover at Penn Station due to delayed arrival of the first leg. The first-class lounge was closed for the night. Amidst all-shuttered shops (even at that time evidently NYP's retail was not 24 hours), the station was a stadium-sized loony bin of difficult people lurching around, shedding fleas and shouting at (mostly) themselves or each other, testing the few actual travelers' alertness for hours on end. Hard-core, to coin a phrase. But Moynihan Station is probably not like that at all? They dim the lights, it's peaceful as you look up through the magnificent skylight, the plumbing works, staff come around every now and then with hot towels and mints?

Moynihan closes overnight between 1 and 5, and you have to use the loony bin next door.

Alexandros Washburn envisages "rebuilding Penn Station as the magnificent cathedral it was."

From the New York Post: This vision for brand-new Penn Station is what NYC dreams are made of (includes video)

Any updates on the renovation?

https://nypost.com/2023/03/09/hochul-ad ... ouble/amp/

Hochul admits plan to fund Penn Station redo with towers is in trouble
...
However, the MTA and Hochul are dreaming of a grander overhaul that would unify the station’s two main levels into one dramatic concourse and waiting area that would feature massive ceilings and more natural light.

They claim the renovation would restore some of the grandeur lost when the original Penn Station was knocked down in the 1960s and replaced with the current complex, which included the construction of Madison Square Garden above.

This is easily fixable: Rebuild the Hotel Pennsylvanian.

Seriously. You pulled it down, you get to build it back up again. Make small rooms cheap enough for travelers and to make a profit to repay any loans taken out to build it, because seriously, you’re going to have mainly solo travelers and you don’t need much to cater for them.

The Jane and Yotel hotels are good models, but I would lean (or maybe court) more to Yotel: Small rooms for 1-2 people, room service for food and some toiletries is done by robot (maybe strike a deal with DC/Marvel and have Yomier, Alfred Yewman, etc for a distinct NY comic flair).

Of course, you’d have convention space and dining suitable for the clientele. Gotta have standard hotel amenities.

The reason why I say it? Travel is going back up hard-core. People want to travel now to get out of the pandemic mindset. Let them.

Here is a report appearing today in The Times suggesting the project - both real estate development and enhancement of the Infrastructure to handle trains "is in trouble":

Fair Use:

The redevelopment of the neighborhood around Penn Station would be one of the largest commercial real estate projects in American history. The project would allow developers to build up to 10 new skyscrapers that would otherwise not be permitted and would siphon off revenue from the new towers to help pay for the overhaul of the run-down train station.

The project’s future — and the renovation of the station itself — now rests with Mr. Cuomo’s successor, Gov. Kathy Hochul. While she has backed the proposal, she has remained quiet in recent months about whether she would modify it in light of Vornado’s hesitation about going forward.

Also, for what it’s worth, the local Community Board has “given” MSG and Mr. Dolan 3 years to vacate said premises. Their city permit renewal may also not be approved.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:38 am This is easily fixable: Rebuild the Hotel Pennsylvania.

Seriously. You pulled it down, you get to build it back up again.

Mr. Wolf, recognizing that you are much younger than I, but still, why would a developer wish to have an "Econotel" when their intent is to have "in the Thirties" top tier office and residential space extending from 6th Avenue to Hudson Yards?

New York still has some "Econotels" with the level of amenities that apparently the brand you note, Yotel, offers. However, those properties are centered around 10th and 11th Avenues. In the past, I've seen busses parked in that area suggesting how those hotels have their guests arrive and depart.

Support for my previous: https://www.amny.com/news/community-boa ... -relocate/

Community Board votes to give Madison Square Garden three years to relocate

Manhattan Community Board 5 made its resolve clear on Thursday night: they want Madison Square Garden relocated to make way for a new Penn Station.

The board’s vote came in response to MSG’s application for a permit allowing the stadium to operate at its location above the crowded transit hub in perpetuity. The board nixed this plan, instead resolving to give the arena three years to relocate.

The vote is advisory, and will now go before the City Planning Commission and City Council before the permit expires July 24.
...

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:38 am The reason why I say it? Travel is going back up hard-core. People want to travel now to get out of the pandemic mindset. Let them.

Maybe, since still not wise to travel in some aspects. I participated in an online Filk music meeting and music circle yesterday, and the below was mentioned. Near and dear to your and my interests SF con event: "COVID OUTBREAK AMONG EASTERCON ATTENDEES. Fans who attended last week’s Eastercon in the UK (“Conversation”) have been self-reporting positive Covid tests and symptoms to the con’s Facebook community group, or to the con’s Discord server, now closed, which reportedly had more than 70 positive tests. Masking is no longer mandatory in the UK, however, the con’s own Covid policy asked people to test before coming, stay home if they tested positive (or had symptoms of an infectious disease), and to wear a mask in program items and crowded areas. There is much discussion of how many people complied with their masking policy, as well as the load on the venue’s ventilation system in places like the bar."

Ken W2KB wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:08 am Maybe, since still not wise to travel in some aspects. I participated in an online Filk music meeting and music circle yesterday, and the below was mentioned. Near and dear to your and my interests SF con event: "COVID OUTBREAK AMONG EASTERCON ATTENDEES. Fans who attended last week’s Eastercon in the UK (“Conversation”) have been self-reporting positive Covid tests and symptoms to the con’s Facebook community group, or to the con’s Discord server, now closed, which reportedly had more than 70 positive tests. Masking is no longer mandatory in the UK, however, the con’s own Covid policy asked people to test before coming, stay home if they tested positive (or had symptoms of an infectious disease), and to wear a mask in program items and crowded areas. There is much discussion of how many people complied with their masking policy, as well as the load on the venue’s ventilation system in places like the bar."

It really depends on the venue and how they treat it. Last year's Anthrocon in Pittsburgh had the following: Proof of vaccination or negative PCR test (limited testing at the convention), mask up in the main hotel and convention center. They had folks go in the lower convention areas to first be pre-screened then go into Registration. This was required for the cosplayers as well (yes, with the heads).

This year, AC's policy is only slightly better, allowing optional masking between the major areas (Registration, Dealers Area/Artists Alley/Art Show, gaming rooms, and panel/event rooms), but masking required when in said areas.

But then, you should see the masks we have and are on sale.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mr. Wolf, recognizing that you are much younger than I, but still, why would a developer wish to have an "Econotel" when their intent is to have "in the Thirties" top tier office and residential space extending from 6th Avenue to Hudson Yards?

New York still has some "Econotels" with the level of amenities that apparently the brand you note, Yotel, offers. However, those properties are centered around 10th and 11th Avenues. In the past, I've seen busses parked in that area suggesting how those hotels have their guests arrive and depart.

I shall assume these are tourist buses.

The thing is, their intent is now out of sync with demand for office space now. At the ground level, NYC is about half empty, with a good chunk due to how it's being marketed and the other due to NY government making even paying the taxes hard to do. There's not much demand for it... there's excess now. So it makes no sense to build more.

Meanwhile, what is the occupancy rate of hotels?

Mr. Wolf, I would think Vornado is aware of your, and for that matter mine, concerns that "they'll never return" as in RTO5X.

But there seems to be an abundance of zillionaires (oh and some lowly millionaires) who want to live in Midtown - and they will cater to them.

And finally, quite the article appeared in The Times regarding conversion of existing office buildings to residential units. The conclusion; older buildings make better candidates for such than do newer ones.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:22 pm [
It really depends on the venue and how they treat it. Last year's Anthrocon in Pittsburgh had the following: Proof of vaccination or negative PCR test (limited testing at the convention), mask up in the main hotel and convention center. They had folks go in the lower convention areas to first be pre-screened then go into Registration. This was required for the cosplayers as well (yes, with the heads).

This year, AC's policy is only slightly better, allowing optional masking between the major areas (Registration, Dealers Area/Artists Alley/Art Show, gaming rooms, and panel/event rooms), but masking required when in said areas.

But then, you should see the masks we have and are on sale.

Definitely agree. I plan to attend the Heliosphere Con, only a 45 minute drive so don't need a hotel room, 28th-30th this month here in NJ. The Con is requiring proof of vac, masking in all areas except the restaurant and eating area, and outside the building gathering area. But for that, I would likely not attend. The Filk Ontario con I attended near Toronto, Canada last summer had similar policies and only one or two COVID cases were reported, likely contracted just before the con. I may attend the upcoming Balticon, not sure yet, and will take Amtrak from Newark, NJ (to keep somewhat on topic of trains ) P.S. I do have a couple of the masks of which I think you speak.