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Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #26858  by mattfels
 
I'm not the only person who's heard the calls for the Sunset to be "axed." Doug Ohlemeier's heard them, too.

Where do I get "offense"? Process of elimination. The "reasons" put forward as backup for this demand inevitably turn out to be invalid. To put it another way, there's no factual basis for the call to "axe the Sunset." What's left? If it's not about facts, it must be about feelings.

 #26909  by mattfels
 
How about Rhinecliff? Here and again here?

From the same thread, LI Loco, here.

And crazy_nip, here.

On the old railroad.net, there was a whole topic titled "Cancellation of the Sunset Limited." Only thing cached from it on Google was an abuse report, so it must have been, well, lively.

 #26967  by David Benton
 
from your link to Rhinecliffs comments ,
"In fact, I support making the Sunset Limited a daily train". By Mr Rhinecliff , hardly calling for its axing .

However , if this forum is going to be readable , i suggest we stick to commenting on current discussions .

 #27073  by trainhq
 
Actually, the person mentioning the Sunset Limited as the most likely
to be axed was none other than John McCain, who placed it at the
top of his list of routes to be cut if Amtrak funding were reduced.

 #27074  by mattfels
 
"John McCain said it"? So? That's just the latest flaccid excuse. I say that a fan should counter the Amtrak opponents, not cite them as cover for bashing, let alone shill for them.

David Benton wrote:i suggest we stick to commenting on current discussions.
Why? Words have meaning. And if they weren't fit to be archived, whose fault is that? Besides, people whose understanding of issues may have changed over time are certainly free to explain how and why.

The real way to keep this forum readable is to remember that this is a public forum. As this exercise illustrates, what's posted here gets picked up by the search engines, indexed and archived. This ain't 1984. There is no memory hole.

 #27148  by Rhinecliff
 
To the best of my memory, I have never called for the cutting of any Amtrak long distance service. As Mr. Benton points out, I certainly did not do so in the thread to which Mr. Fells cites. Ironicallly, in that thread, I called for increasing the Sunset's frequency to daily service.

(My other point in that thread was that I did not believe Texas or Louisiana were potential markets for viable corridor services. I still don't.)

 #27170  by C&O 15
 
Other than Crazy Nip, no self-described railfan has ever called for the Sunset Limited to be "axed" in any post that has ever appeared on railroad.net's Amtrak forum.

If this statement is wrong (and it may be, though I don't think so), it should be easy to disprove. The posts by Rhinecliff and LI Loco, linked above, do not call for axing the Sunset.

 #27171  by CNJ
 
The Sunset Limited should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of New Orleans.

The Texas Eagle should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of St. Louis.

Lets move on gentlemen.........

 #27242  by RMadisonWI
 
CNJ wrote:The Sunset Limited should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of New Orleans.

The Texas Eagle should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of St. Louis.
Why?

Somehow, I really don't think much thought was put into the above post, though the first suggestion could have some merit.

If they cut the Sunset in New Orleans, that would enable Amtrak to offer additional frequencies to the west (I haven't done the equipment tracing to figure it all out, but I'd guess one, maybe two extra trips a week).

However, Amtrak would have to (i.e. I don't see this as "optional") provide alternative rail service east of New Orleans. Unfortunately, with Amtrak's constant equipment shortage, this might have to be some sort of coach-only train with a lounge and no diner. However, if they could get a couple of sets of coaches (a bit of a stretch considering their current equipment situation, no doubt) and a couple of lounges running back and forth, then could run that separate train daily. There would certainly be trade-offs to this approach (loss of sleeper service east of NOL vs. increased frequencies on the whole route).

Now, I can't think of a single good reason to cut the Texas Eagle back at St. Louis. First of all, you've introduced a connection for every passenger traveling through St. Louis. Second, if the Eagle is late, then it may miss its connecting train, creating even more problems. If Eagle passengers are connecting to another train in Chicago, then you're talking two connections instead of just one. Not to mention the fact that these through passengers would have to wait in St. Louis's magnificent "union trailers" (the temporary station that's been serving passengers for the last two to three decades).

The only way I could see it a good idea to have the Eagle not serve Chicago is if it was rerouted east from St. Louis towards Indiana (oh, wait, I forgot, they don't deserve passenger rail service because they didn't support the National Limited over 25 years ago, whose elimination had nothing to do with massive budget cuts to Amtrak....but I digress*) and the East coast, but that ain't gonna happen any time soon.

I don't know the poster's motives for suggesting that the Eagle be cut back to St. Louis (which, by the way, adds even further complications and costs for Amtrak because now they have to service trains in St. Louis without saving much on the Chicago end), but some "railfans" tend to wish for the "good ole days," and any changes are no good because "that ain't the way they used to do it back in the day." Not that nostalgia had anything at all to do with the above proposed service reductions, but I really can't think of any other motives.

*Please note sarcasm
Last edited by RMadisonWI on Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

 #27249  by CNJ
 
Why does the Sunset have to be a transcontinental train...incapable of ever being on time?

Why can't the Eagle return to its historical eastern terminus of St. Louis ...where it can have connections to other trains to the east and south?

Why?.....becausre it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me....thats why!


RMadisonWI wrote:
CNJ wrote:The Sunset Limited should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of New Orleans.

The Texas Eagle should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of St. Louis.
Why?

 #27259  by RMadisonWI
 
CNJ wrote:Why does the Sunset have to be a transcontinental train...incapable of ever being on time?
What does "transcontinental" have to do with its on-time performance?
Why can't the Eagle return to its historical eastern terminus of St. Louis ...where it can have connections to other trains to the east and south?
What connections? The "Ann Rutledge"?
Why?.....becausre it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me....thats why!
Well, since your original post made no mention of these mythical "connections...to the east and south" I had nothing to go on but the idea that this was just a service reduction. And, as I stated in my modified post above, who cares about its "historical eastern terminus?" It's more efficient to run it to Chicago, where Amtrak can service the train and use its equipment to protect another train (currently the City of New Orleans).

Even if there were connections in St. Louis to the east and south (and I'm sure you know the only way to get those...and dreaming about history ain't it), it would still make sense to run the train through to Chicago (unless it ran through to somewhere else).
Last edited by RMadisonWI on Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #27260  by CNJ
 
Indeed, you don't know my motives Sir...

However, I would advise you against using the "broad brush approach" commonly used by others here of portraying posters with train ideas as a "railfan" (sic).

It shows you not capable of looking of the "big picture" as it were.

Food for thought....



RMadisonWI wrote:
CNJ wrote:The Sunset Limited should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of New Orleans.

The Texas Eagle should be scaled back to its original eastern terminus of St. Louis.

I don't know the poster's motives for suggesting that the Eagle be cut back to St. Louis (which, by the way, adds even further complications and costs for Amtrak because now they have to service trains in St. Louis without saving much on the Chicago end), but some "railfans" tend to wish for the "good ole days," and any changes are no good because "that ain't the way they used to do it back in the day." Not that nostalgia had anything at all to do with the above proposed service reductions, but I really can't think of any other motives.

 #27265  by CNJ
 
Are you sure YOU're not a railfan Mr. Madison?????

Because you seem kind of lost with your posts......

 #27269  by RMadisonWI
 
CNJ wrote:Indeed, you don't know my motives Sir...
Which is why I said I didn't.
However, I would advise you against using the "broad brush approach" commonly used by others here of portraying posters with train ideas as a "railfan" (sic).
Well, I did say "some 'railfans.'" I made that statement intentionally vague.
It shows you not capable of looking of the "big picture" as it were.
I guess it depends on which "big picture" we're looking at. The big picture I'm looking at is this:

Amtrak desperately needs funding right now to keep going. It's up to congress (or the states, if they were so inclined, and had the means, but neither seems to be the case for most states) to provide those funds.

If congress approves these funds, and actually appropriates them (i.e. no more broken promises), Amtrak will be able to rebuild the railroad, which is what David Gunn is doing with his five-year plan.

After FY08, if all goes as planned, Amtrak will be in a state of good repair, and in a position to expand services.

If we want to look at connections to the east and south from St. Louis, to be implemented in the post FY08 timeframe (or sooner if somebody else wants to pony up the cash for equipment, track rehabilitation, stations, and operations), then we need to think in terms of what's good for America in 2004 (or 2008 and beyond).

The fact that the Texas Eagle, decades ago, terminated in St. Louis, or the SP's Sunset Limited terminated in New Orleans, will be completely irrelevant to the folks living in 2008 (which, presumably, will include most of us as well).

If we want Amtrak to survive for another 33 years (or, shall I say, passenger rail service in the US, provided by Amtrak or otherwise), we're definitely going to have to address the issue of railroad capacity, which affects on-time performance. If we can do that, then (hopefully) today's Sunset Limited's frequent arrival hours late at each end will be a moot point.

Likewise, the Texas Eagle (or whatever the train may be called by that time) should be reliable enough to arrive on time at its endpoints, with much of the schedule padding removed. Therefore, where's the harm in running it through to Chicago (or beyond), even if there are connections in St. Louis. It should go without saying that passengers prefer direct trips to connecting trips, so, why add a connection?

Suppose high-speed rail is introduced on the Chicago-St. Louis corridor, and you have departures every couple of hours or better (in fact, isn't 110 mph running pretty close to implementation?). If the Texas Eagle equipment is capable of running at those speeds, then run it as another corridor frequency (or, I suppose you could do a NEC-style discharge only northbound/receive only southbound schedule, to protect long-distance passengers). If the equipment can't run at those speeds, then run it through to the east, perhaps even creating another transcontinental train; WAS-CIN-IND-STL-FTW-SAS-LAX (or maybe skip SAS and head straight west from Fort Worth, saving some time). This would provide literally thousands of potential city-pairs, from short-range corridor segments to a nice, slow-paced (or medium-paced) cross-country vacation. To any purists out there, I do apologize in advance if this routing lacks historical precedent.

And that's just a small example of what could be possible if the money is available to expand our national passenger rail system (i.e. the "big picture"). Such planning must be done with a 2004 railroad map and the latest census data, not the 1955 official guide.