Electrification of NJ Transit

I am a strong believer in railroad electrification, especially in terms of commuter rail, due to the fact that I doubt any locomotive by itself would get more than 1mpg by itself, much less hauling a bunch of coaches, and global warming/cost-benefit analysis blahblahblah

I am wondering, do you think it could ever be feasible to electrify the entire NJTransit commuter rail system. SEPTA's system is entirely electrified, and heck, take a look at such lines as the NJCL and the MBL. I was also an environmental studies major at Ramapo College who would go into the city a lot, and I shuddered to think that, while one could take the electrified PATH from NYC to Hoboken, Hoboken to Mahwah was all diesel.

jgd712 wrote:I am a strong believer in railroad electrification, especially in terms of commuter rail, due to the fact that I doubt any locomotive by itself would get more than 1mpg by itself, much less hauling a bunch of coaches, and global warming/cost-benefit analysis blahblahblah

I am wondering, do you think it could ever be feasible to electrify the entire NJTransit commuter rail system. SEPTA's system is entirely electrified, and heck, take a look at such lines as the NJCL and the MBL. I was also an environmental studies major at Ramapo College who would go into the city a lot, and I shuddered to think that, while one could take the electrified PATH from NYC to Hoboken, Hoboken to Mahwah was all diesel.

Doable? Yes most likely. Cheap and cost effective to set up said infrastructure? Well I think the 35 ALP45s we just ordered put that firmly in the no category.

as for price per megawatt, it is still doubtfull that Electrification is cheaper than fossil fuel, specially with all instalation and maintenance cost of the catenary.
If you run a lot of trains on a line then yes Electrification is cheaper but if your train count is 6 per hour or lower fogetaboutit.

jgd712 wrote:I am a strong believer in railroad electrification, especially in terms of commuter rail, due to the fact that I doubt any locomotive by itself would get more than 1mpg by itself, much less hauling a bunch of coaches, and global warming/cost-benefit analysis blahblahblah

I am wondering, do you think it could ever be feasible to electrify the entire NJTransit commuter rail system. SEPTA's system is entirely electrified, and heck, take a look at such lines as the NJCL and the MBL. I was also an environmental studies major at Ramapo College who would go into the city a lot, and I shuddered to think that, while one could take the electrified PATH from NYC to Hoboken, Hoboken to Mahwah was all diesel.

Mentioning SEPTA in this context is a bit deceptive. SEPTA used to have diesel territory (Reading, Bethlehem, Newtown), and after the Center City Commuter Tunnel was opened and Reading Terminal shut down, the service retreated to already-electrified rails...and even the electric territory itself retreated in the case of the former R3 being cut back from West Chester to Elwyn.

Before the early 1960s, there was no Hoboken to Mahwah route; the rails ran from Jersey City's Erie Terminal westward (Pavonia, adjacent to today's Newport Mall which was built on the former Erie right of way); this is why the PATH Pavonia-Newport station has the "E" on the platform pillars and the seemingly-overcapacity ramps leading to the terminal that once served both commuter and intercity passengers at this location.

IIRC though, at one time NJT did have tentative plans to electrify its entire commuter rail network. That was before the ARC plans got too grandiose and before the seductive ALP-45DP came along (but after the URL for NJT's website changed from www.njtransit.state.nj.us to www.njtransit.com I believe).

Technically I suppose it would be possible, however feasible given the current economic climate, I doubt it. Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it though.

Here is one reason against. Doesn' really apply to NJT however.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/mothball ... story.html

DutchRailnut wrote:as for price per megawatt, it is still doubtfull that Electrification is cheaper than fossil fuel, specially with all instalation and maintenance cost of the catenary.
If you run a lot of trains on a line then yes Electrification is cheaper but if your train count is 6 per hour or lower fogetaboutit.

6 trains per hour is too low for electrification? You don't see that many trains an hour during off peak hours on the NJCL, M&E, Gladstone, or Montclair-Boonton Lines.

I've heard four per hour. And the whole "per hour measurement" brings up more questions than it answers. Is it refering to "4 trains per track that hour" or "four trains per ROW that hour"?. Obviously there is a difference in electric infrastructure when your comparing electrifying a single track ROW with four trains per hour vs a four track ROW with four trains per hour over all tracks.

Don31 wrote:Here is one reason against. Doesn't really apply to NJT however.

AMT mothballs electric train idea – Montreal Gazette

That story is certainly full of holes. And that's aside from CN and CP's protestations that electric passenger rail and diesel freight could not "coexist" (funny how they do indeed coexist on the Northeast Corridor and on the former Reading through West Trenton). Never mind that the extant electrification used to be all Canadian National anyhow, i.e. prior to rebuild (originally 2.4kV DC, later 3kv DC; nowadays 25kV 60Hz AC).

amtrakowitz wrote:

Don31 wrote:Here is one reason against. Doesn't really apply to NJT however.

AMT mothballs electric train idea – Montreal Gazette

That story is certainly full of holes. And that's aside from CN and CP's protestations that electric passenger rail and diesel freight could not "coexist" (funny how they do indeed coexist on the Northeast Corridor and on the former Reading through West Trenton). Never mind that the extant electrification used to be all Canadian National anyhow, i.e. prior to rebuild (originally 2.4kV DC, later 3kv DC; nowadays 25kV 60Hz AC).

Good points that I never considered. I guess ya can't trust everything you see online...

Northeast Corridor is a good example. Even back in the day the PRR ran commuter, intercity px, through freight (electric, diesel and steam) and local freight and they all coexisted...

Keep in mind all catenay is not at same height and todays freight cars are a lot higher than old plate C cars of yesteryear,.
for example: NYNH&HRR ran lots of freight on New Haven line but todays cars keep on grounding the wire.
Centerbeam and double stacks and even high cube box and raised Gondola's no longer fit.
So raise the wire you say ?? not so fast every overpass needs to be raised too.

DutchRailnut wrote:Keep in mind all catenary is not at same height and todays freight cars are a lot higher than old plate C cars of yesteryear.
for example: NYNH&HRR ran lots of freight on New Haven line but today's cars keep on grounding the wire.
Centerbeam and double stacks and even high cube box and raised Gondolas no longer fit.
So raise the wire you say ?? not so fast every overpass needs to be raised too.

Name the problem spots in New Jersey, as well as the places where heavy freight and passenger really share operations. RVL/Lehigh Line's overpasses are where it intersects I-78, US 22, North Broad Street and Long Avenue in Hillside, and the GSP (but the RVL is off the Lehigh Line by that point); clearances are quite high there. CSX no longer runs 1½-stack containers on the NEC ever since the B&O bridge strike in Linden some years ago that ripped down wire. Everywhere else (mostly NJT ownership), there isn't significant freight never mind overheight/overwidth freight.

As far as clearances go, you could always undercut each bridge, like Conrail did in Pennsylvania some years back.

The only problem spot for electrification on NJT's system from a logistical point of view is the Lehigh Line stretch of the RVL, but that is not an insurmountable obstacle. CSX runs double stacks under wire on the West Trenton Line. Currently though, the costs needed to undertake systemwide electrification do not make economic sense unless either a new Hudson River tunnel allows more trains to run into NYP, or fossil fuels continue to rise in price. 15 to 20 years down the line, this might make sense; oil won't be cheap forever.

I doubt NJT would be able to get away with retreating back to all electrified turf, they put entirely too much stock into their diesel lines for that. The Main/BCL especially would be a big hit to their bottom line and would sour their relationship with MN.

amtrakowitz wrote:

jgd712 wrote:I am a strong believer in railroad electrification, especially in terms of commuter rail, due to the fact that I doubt any locomotive by itself would get more than 1mpg by itself, much less hauling a bunch of coaches, and global warming/cost-benefit analysis blahblahblah

I am wondering, do you think it could ever be feasible to electrify the entire NJTransit commuter rail system. SEPTA's system is entirely electrified, and heck, take a look at such lines as the NJCL and the MBL. I was also an environmental studies major at Ramapo College who would go into the city a lot, and I shuddered to think that, while one could take the electrified PATH from NYC to Hoboken, Hoboken to Mahwah was all diesel.

Mentioning SEPTA in this context is a bit deceptive. SEPTA used to have diesel territory (Reading, Bethlehem, Newtown), and after the Center City Commuter Tunnel was opened and Reading Terminal shut down, the service retreated to already-electrified rails...and even the electric territory itself retreated in the case of the former R3 being cut back from West Chester to Elwyn.

Before the early 1960s, there was no Hoboken to Mahwah route; the rails ran from Jersey City's Erie Terminal westward (Pavonia, adjacent to today's Newport Mall which was built on the former Erie right of way); this is why the PATH Pavonia-Newport station has the "E" on the platform pillars and the seemingly-overcapacity ramps leading to the terminal that once served both commuter and intercity passengers at this location.

IIRC though, at one time NJT did have tentative plans to electrify its entire commuter rail network. That was before the ARC plans got too grandiose and before the seductive ALP-45DP came along (but after the URL for NJT's website changed from http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us to http://www.njtransit.com I believe).