li7039 wrote:How many did NJT have. Did the crews like them. were they used in passeneer serviceE44's were never used for passenger service...strictly freight.
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E44
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by F3A
by Zeke
Hi, Chief ! BTW the E-44 could and did operate between HUDSON and Sunnyside albeit only in extreme circumstances. GG-1 shortages due to snow related electrical problems usually caused the infrequent use of an E on a passenger train. The E-44 operated in the lead and the stricken GG-1 went along to provide steam heat to the train and diner. I believe Pennsy Power 2 ( the book ) has a few pics of E-44s in Penn station NY and pulling passenger trains in the snow. They could maintain 80 mph with ease but rode rough especially operating long hood out, they were built with dual control stands. Back around 64- 65 the PRR ran some test unit coal trains thru the tubes into Penn station and up to the New Haven at Harold or Oak Point for points north. The track engineering people put a stop to it due to the North river tunnel moving around to much in the muck, under the weight of three E-44s and 60 cars of coal.
The crews loved them, the heat would drive you out of the cab in zero weather . The exact opposite of the freezing cold and drafty GG-1. From what I have heard the NJT E-44 deal fell through due to the extreme Toxic properties of the PCB oil used to cool the main transformer. Supposedly PCB oil is the most toxic thing ever created in a laboratory this side of nuclear material.This discovery and other factors led Amtrak, Conrail and NJT to scrap their Gs and Es ending their reign on the NEC.
The crews loved them, the heat would drive you out of the cab in zero weather . The exact opposite of the freezing cold and drafty GG-1. From what I have heard the NJT E-44 deal fell through due to the extreme Toxic properties of the PCB oil used to cool the main transformer. Supposedly PCB oil is the most toxic thing ever created in a laboratory this side of nuclear material.This discovery and other factors led Amtrak, Conrail and NJT to scrap their Gs and Es ending their reign on the NEC.
by Nasadowsk
<i>Supposedly PCB oil is the most toxic thing ever created in a laboratory this side of nuclear material.</i>
No, it's not. And most nuclear stuff isn't that bad anyway. In fact, you can hold many plutonium isotopes with gloved hands. It's self warming (and bizzare stuff, no doubt), alpha emitting, and realatively interesting stuff. It's used in smoke detectors in some countries. No, you can't make a bomb out of the stuff they use in smoke detectors.
PCBs aren't great, but they're hardly instant death like a lot of stuff involved with chemical processing is. The big issue, IIRC, is they don't flush out of your body, and they have been show to cause cancer in lab rats. The latter is suspect - lab rats litteraly get cancer from anything, even dietary changes.
They used various types in all sorts of stuff years ago - transformers, paint, insulation, etc etc etc.
And, there's NOTHING illegal about operating PCB transformers (realize all of MN's are legally still PCB, as are SEPTA's), as long as they're not leaking and in good condition. You can't refill (and there's no reason to - today's fluids are better in every way) with PCBs, but existing ones can still be in operation.
The E44s likely never got much passenger service because they sucked as passenger motors - they were designed and intended are freight motors, and they were very good at that.
As for the Gs - it wasn't PCBs that killed them, it was the fact that they were worn out and nobody was making new parts for them either...
No, it's not. And most nuclear stuff isn't that bad anyway. In fact, you can hold many plutonium isotopes with gloved hands. It's self warming (and bizzare stuff, no doubt), alpha emitting, and realatively interesting stuff. It's used in smoke detectors in some countries. No, you can't make a bomb out of the stuff they use in smoke detectors.
PCBs aren't great, but they're hardly instant death like a lot of stuff involved with chemical processing is. The big issue, IIRC, is they don't flush out of your body, and they have been show to cause cancer in lab rats. The latter is suspect - lab rats litteraly get cancer from anything, even dietary changes.
They used various types in all sorts of stuff years ago - transformers, paint, insulation, etc etc etc.
And, there's NOTHING illegal about operating PCB transformers (realize all of MN's are legally still PCB, as are SEPTA's), as long as they're not leaking and in good condition. You can't refill (and there's no reason to - today's fluids are better in every way) with PCBs, but existing ones can still be in operation.
The E44s likely never got much passenger service because they sucked as passenger motors - they were designed and intended are freight motors, and they were very good at that.
As for the Gs - it wasn't PCBs that killed them, it was the fact that they were worn out and nobody was making new parts for them either...
by pgengler
Nasadowsk wrote:The big issue, IIRC, is they don't flush out of your body, and they have been show to cause cancer in lab rats. The latter is suspect - lab rats litteraly get cancer from anything, even dietary changes.A little O/T, but this reminds me of a great quote from "The West Wing":
Red meat has been found to cause cancer in white rats. Maraschino cherries have been found to cause cancer in white rats. Cellular phones have been found to cause cancer in white rats. Has anyone examined the possibility that cancer might be hereditary in white rats?On the subject of the E-44s, though, I think that when Amtrak pushed Conrail freights off the corridor, that had a lot to do with the lack of spare parts. From what I've read, they seemed like a "hot potato" between Amtrak and NJT; first Amtrak had them, and then once they didn't want them anymore, they sold them to NJT, who later sold them back to Amtrak.
Phil Gengler
Overheard in NY Penn: "All aboard! Get on the train if you're coming with us!"
Overheard in NY Penn: "All aboard! Get on the train if you're coming with us!"
by steemtrayn
Red meat has been found to cause cancer in white rats. Maraschino cherries have been found to cause cancer in white rats. Cellular phones have been found to cause cancer in white rats. Has anyone examined the possibility that cancer might be hereditary in white rats?Red meat is not bad for you. Green meat is bad for you.
by BlockLine_4111
IIRC NJT acquired ten E44s to replace the GG1. But after they acquired them they shifted gears (i.e. changed plans) and obtained some AMTRAK E60s.
Not sure if the change in plans was prompted by technical issues of E44s (i.e. long hood forward use, NYP tubes, no HEP) or if E60s all of a sudden became available.
Not sure if the change in plans was prompted by technical issues of E44s (i.e. long hood forward use, NYP tubes, no HEP) or if E60s all of a sudden became available.
by E-44
Nasadowsk wrote:The E44s likely never got much passenger service because they sucked as passenger motors - they were designed and intended are freight motors, and they were very good at that.Well, they were designed to lug at 60 mph. You could gear down a GG-1 for freight, but it didn't work well going the other way.
GE offered to build the E-55 (based on the E-44) around 1970/71 to address a number of issues:
- A lower hood and tapered body and shorter chassis to better fit through the tunnels.
Two aerodynamically faired cabs instead of one, with extended viewing angles. I don't think he called them comfort cabs, but he had made enough trips in the GG-1's to know that improvements were needed.
A very advanced (for the time) prototype GTO Thyristor design.
6,500 HP rating
27-pin trainline
Steam generator (option)
120 mph design speed
A Bo-Bo wheel arangement
Wish I could find my father's notebooks - haven't seen them in a long time. They may have gone in the trash along with my timetables, baseball card collection and comic books (Thanks, Mom).
"Sewaren, Sewaren. Next stop is Barber, then Perth Amboy."
by Don31
acelaman wrote:Anyone know of any photos of the E44 in NJT colors?Tom Gallo's book on NJT has a shot of 4461 in Conrail Blue with NJT stenciled in white on the side of the cab, does that count?
by ryanov
Nasadowsk wrote: And, there's NOTHING illegal about operating PCB transformers (realize all of MN's are legally still PCB, as are SEPTA's), as long as they're not leaking and in good condition. You can't refill (and there's no reason to - today's fluids are better in every way) with PCBs, but existing ones can still be in operation.You sure of that? I think the 400 series Silverliner IV's are non-PCB.
|=| R. Novosielski |=|
by the sarge
I know the SEPTA Silverliner IV’s had the PCB equipment replaced when they were overhauled. Not sure about the rest, I heard the whole fleet had converted to non-PCB equipment –but I can’t confirm this.
As to the toxicity of PCB, the main problem is in its composition, it does not break down; in the ground or in the body. There have been documented cases involved with lawsuits were people exposed to PCBs not only had high risks of cancer, but a high number of birth defects. A high profile case in the Philadelphia Pa area was about the former Pennsylvania Railroad MU shops at Paoli PA
As to the toxicity of PCB, the main problem is in its composition, it does not break down; in the ground or in the body. There have been documented cases involved with lawsuits were people exposed to PCBs not only had high risks of cancer, but a high number of birth defects. A high profile case in the Philadelphia Pa area was about the former Pennsylvania Railroad MU shops at Paoli PA
Last edited by the sarge on Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
by Nasadowsk
What was so advanced about SCR control in 1970? The Westinghouse Metroliners had it, the Arrow Is had it, the RC1 and 2 had it.
Unless, you mean either reverse phase angle or AC inversion - which would have been. I think AC inversion was just starting to be experimented with back then, and reverse phase angle was likely not feasible at high powers yet.
What killed early SCR systems was they tended to get destroyed by TM flashovers. GE's E60 system was a 3 supply totem pole like the Silverliners, but other than that, was totally throttleable from 0 - full power.
It took better SCRs to make it practical.
ASEA went a different route in the 60's and 70's to get around the interference / power factor issues. I don't know if they ever did the multiple power supply design GE and Westinghouse did, but they ultimately went into some really bizzare firing techniques.
The SL IVs didn't have PCBs? Maybe. I'm not sure - I thought all of them did. Legally, just draining and refilling the main transformer is NOT enough - it's still classed as a PCB transformer. I mean, yeah, it really doesn't, but the EPA thinks it does...
Oddly, the hot new replacement is soybean oil with a heavy dose of BHT preservative. The stuff's litterally FDA approved - you can cook french fries in it (!). It's got a high high flash point. It sucks the water out of the paper. Spills and contact with skin aren't big issues. It biodegrades - fast. But not in the xfmr tank. It's seriously neat stuff. NJT uses it in a lot of subs now...
It's still a bit pricy, but it makes up for it in so many ways, it's not even funny. It's better than mineral oil, better than PCBs, better than sillicone. Cooper makes it - ABB has a brand engineered equivelent (though it's less common in Europe because of their design prefference w.r.t. substation transformers).
Unless, you mean either reverse phase angle or AC inversion - which would have been. I think AC inversion was just starting to be experimented with back then, and reverse phase angle was likely not feasible at high powers yet.
What killed early SCR systems was they tended to get destroyed by TM flashovers. GE's E60 system was a 3 supply totem pole like the Silverliners, but other than that, was totally throttleable from 0 - full power.
It took better SCRs to make it practical.
ASEA went a different route in the 60's and 70's to get around the interference / power factor issues. I don't know if they ever did the multiple power supply design GE and Westinghouse did, but they ultimately went into some really bizzare firing techniques.
The SL IVs didn't have PCBs? Maybe. I'm not sure - I thought all of them did. Legally, just draining and refilling the main transformer is NOT enough - it's still classed as a PCB transformer. I mean, yeah, it really doesn't, but the EPA thinks it does...
Oddly, the hot new replacement is soybean oil with a heavy dose of BHT preservative. The stuff's litterally FDA approved - you can cook french fries in it (!). It's got a high high flash point. It sucks the water out of the paper. Spills and contact with skin aren't big issues. It biodegrades - fast. But not in the xfmr tank. It's seriously neat stuff. NJT uses it in a lot of subs now...
It's still a bit pricy, but it makes up for it in so many ways, it's not even funny. It's better than mineral oil, better than PCBs, better than sillicone. Cooper makes it - ABB has a brand engineered equivelent (though it's less common in Europe because of their design prefference w.r.t. substation transformers).