Direct Connection - Subway to 30th Street Rail Station

Has there ever been a direct walkway (concourse) from the Market Frankford Line and Subway Surface Line 30th Station to the Amtrak, Regional Rail, and NJT 30th Street Station? If so, why was it closed? Are there plans to build (or relpen) such a connection?

Yes there has been. It was closed a while ago (in the 80's I think) because of crime concerns. The end inside the Amtrak station is located where Bridgewater's Pub is currently located and is blocked off. The end inside the El station is still visible...at the end of the concourse before heading up the stairs to 30th street on the north side of Market, there is a locked staircase heading down. I think SEPTA uses it for storage now, but this is the entrance to the former passageway.

I've always wondered...unlike Philly, how can New York City have a labyrinth of underground passageways and concourses connecting subways to the railroad stations (Penn Station and Grand Central) without having any issues with crime??? In Philly, there is just that one short passage between 30th Street (Amtrak) Station and the Market-Frankford Line that could possibly very easily be fixed up and put under heavy surveillance, along with other possible features to help deter crime. The same holds true with the closed-off portions of the Center City concourses. My burning question always has been...
Why can't Philadelphia be like New York City???

My guess is that this passageway hasn't reopened not because of crime—Center City has changed a lot since the 1980s—but because relocating Bridgewater's Pub would be more trouble than it's worth to get the tunnel reopened.

The 30th Street Station District Plan http://www.phillydistrict30.com/ includes a new connection as part of a major upgrade to the station and its surroundings.

Of course, the issues are as always funding and political will, both rare commodities in the current era of government gridlock.

SubwayTim wrote:I've always wondered...unlike Philly, how can New York City have a labyrinth of underground passageways and concourses connecting subways to the railroad stations (Penn Station and Grand Central) without having any issues with crime??? In Philly, there is just that one short passage between 30th Street (Amtrak) Station and the Market-Frankford Line that could possibly very easily be fixed up and put under heavy surveillance, along with other possible features to help deter crime. The same holds true with the closed-off portions of the Center City concourses. My burning question always has been...
Why can't Philadelphia be like New York City???

That's a good question that I don't have an answer for. Perhaps usage? Even obscure stations in NYC have plenty of patronage, as well as the tunnels that lead to them, making them not as dangerous.

Everyone:

The direct connecting passageway from the SW corner of 30th Street Station into the adjacent Market Street Subway was closed back in the
early 1980s around the time that the south section of the station - the current food court areas - underwent renovation to reopen which was
a closed off section of the station interior.

The passageway - which had two access entrances (one with a staircase-one with a escalator) from the mentioned SW corner area of the station
went under some lower level tracks and had long escalators/staircases from the station end and then another escalator/staircase up into the
subway station mezzanine (that remnant is visible today at the NE corner exit closed off) had problems with vandalism and other crimes being
committed (I recall that there was mention of muggings in the passageway) and to make matters worse there were jurisdictional PD problems
between the Amtrak and Philadelphia Police Transit Unit (who patrolled SEPTA subways before the SEPTA Police were created in 1980) over how
this connecting passageway would be protected and because of all these problems the decision was made to seal up and close off this access.

I feel that it would be far easier to construct a wide canopy over the pedestrian walkways between the SW corner entrance of 30th Street Station
to the entrances of the 30th Street subway station which would have to be large enough to provide protection from the elements and high enough
to clear vehicles at the 30th Street intersection which could be a compromise of some kind over reopening the long closed passageway.

Reopening this passageway today not only would at least partially displace a tenant (the bar in the SW corner area) it would require a large scale
construction project to install at least two escalators and rebuild and reconstruct the passageway areas.

It would be good to have a enclosed connection between these two stations again but unless someone is willing to step forward and offer to pay
for this restoration and for the cost of protecting this property this more then likely will not be rebuilt.

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX et. al. - Page 18 of the District Plan's dog & pony show indicates that current thinking is to restore some form of underground connection.

With all the dough septa put into the new entrance to the MFL, one would think they could have put an escalator in. The elevator is so slow and the stairs are a pain, especially when carrying luggage.
Also the MFL station area is generally dreary. How about putting some vendors or more attractive colors down there?

JK: Thanks for posting the PDF showing the ambitious (to say the least) 30th Street Station area plan.

I noticed the proposal to restore the connecting passageway to the Market Street Subway with all new amenities such as a skylight overhead
and since the old infrastructure is sealed up and built it would help matters as compared to building all new.

A restored passageway is going to need two elevators on each end to comply with ADA regulations - one on the 30th Street Station side built new
and the current elevator at the subway end modified to serve the underpass under track level.

From what I remember from using the passageway when it was open the vandalism was of two types: graffiti and damage to light fixtures,etc.
There was sometime vagrants there and blind spots - especially those on the long staircases at the bottom leading from the Amtrak level in which
people could urinate and those with bad intent could hide remembering the mention of people being robbed in there. The escalators sometimes
suffered from lack of maintenance and were vandal targets also.

It would be interesting to see what just this restoration project will cost and how a canopy over the outdoor walkway between these stations could
be a far lower cost alternative to at least protect walkers from inclement weather making this connection.

BNT: The elevator at the 30th Street Subway station is not great - remember it is a ADA elevator designed to accommodate the elderly and handicapped
but it is there and somewhat well used - better that then a vertical "latrine" like the elevators at the Fern Rock TC RRD station end are at times.

The station mezzanine itself is far cleaner and brighter then it was back in the 70s before it was upgraded during the 80s. I agree that it is boring
because it has no amenities added inside - but it is simple and functional being the busy station that it is for MFSE and sub surface trolley riders.

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:JK: Thanks for posting the PDF showing the ambitious (to say the least) 30th Street Station area plan.

I noticed the proposal to restore the connecting passageway to the Market Street Subway with all new amenities such as a skylight overhead
and since the old infrastructure is sealed up and built it would help matters as compared to building all new.

A restored passageway is going to need two elevators on each end to comply with ADA regulations - one on the 30th Street Station side built new
and the current elevator at the subway end modified to serve the underpass under track level.

From what I remember from using the passageway when it was open the vandalism was of two types: graffiti and damage to light fixtures,etc.
There was sometime vagrants there and blind spots - especially those on the long staircases at the bottom leading from the Amtrak level in which
people could urinate and those with bad intent could hide remembering the mention of people being robbed in there. The escalators sometimes
suffered from lack of maintenance and were vandal targets also.

It would be interesting to see what just this restoration project will cost and how a canopy over the outdoor walkway between these stations could
be a far lower cost alternative to at least protect walkers from inclement weather making this connection.

BNT: The elevator at the 30th Street Subway station is not great - remember it is a ADA elevator designed to accommodate the elderly and handicapped
but it is there and somewhat well used - better that then a vertical "latrine" like the elevators at the Fern Rock TC RRD station end are at times.

The station mezzanine itself is far cleaner and brighter then it was back in the 70s before it was upgraded during the 80s. I agree that it is boring
because it has no amenities added inside - but it is simple and functional being the busy station that it is for MFSE and sub surface trolley riders.

MACTRAXX

As far as people being robbed in the passageway, remember back in the 1970's/1980's there were no surveillance cameras or other crime deterrents that we have today...

ST:

There was camera surveillance already used in the second half of the 1970s - but cameras were primitive compared to the "big brother" systems that we have in
use today being primarily black and white TV type. This technology evolved substantially during the 1980s and as we know over time since then it has improved
to the point of being very useful for a wide range of applications - like the thousands of cameras watching SEPTA riders using the system each day.

The first system that I am aware of to widely use cameras to keep watch was the Washington Metro in which the stations were equipped with cameras from the
day that they opened - but not on board the trains themselves until much later as far as I know.

The problem with the design of the connecting passageway from 30th Street Station to the Market Street Subway mezzanine is that it was a older design that
dates from a time period in which crime was not a big concern - the same passageways today would more then likely have active surveillance from police patrols
and its own system of cameras and be physically designed for example to have graffiti-resistant (ceramic tile or equivalent) walls and not have places in them
in which someone would not be visible to another such as at the bottom endings of the long staircase and escalator down from the station concourse which was
more then likely the "trouble spots" back when these passageways were being used. Having good visibility sight lines is a key to help keep places like this safe.

MACTRAXX

eb684 wrote:Yes there has been. It was closed a while ago (in the 80's I think) because of crime concerns. The end inside the Amtrak station is located where Bridgewater's Pub is currently located and is blocked off. The end inside the El station is still visible...at the end of the concourse before heading up the stairs to 30th street on the north side of Market, there is a locked staircase heading down. I think SEPTA uses it for storage now, but this is the entrance to the former passageway.

actually it is much more extensive. the underground concourse extends from 30th st clear to the 29th st side with direct access to each lower level platform. this portion of the concourse is fairly wide. the elevator on the SEPTA side serves the tunnel which is sealed. the tunnel was built to facility transfers from transit to and from the lower levels of 30th st.
I suspect Amtrak had far fewer cops in those days, 30th st was a different place (prerenovation). there was also a story about some homeless guy (I think) having a heart attack and people just stepping over him at the bottom of the escalator to the station

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone:

The direct connecting passageway from the SW corner of 30th Street Station into the adjacent Market Street Subway was closed back in the
early 1980s around the time that the south section of the station - the current food court areas - underwent renovation to reopen which was
a closed off section of the station interior.

The passageway - which had two access entrances (one with a staircase-one with a escalator) from the mentioned SW corner area of the station
went under some lower level tracks and had long escalators/staircases from the station end and then another escalator/staircase up into the
subway station mezzanine (that remnant is visible today at the NE corner exit closed off) had problems with vandalism and other crimes being
committed (I recall that there was mention of muggings in the passageway) and to make matters worse there were jurisdictional PD problems
between the Amtrak and Philadelphia Police Transit Unit (who patrolled SEPTA subways before the SEPTA Police were created in 1980) over how
this connecting passageway would be protected and because of all these problems the decision was made to seal up and close off this access.

I feel that it would be far easier to construct a wide canopy over the pedestrian walkways between the SW corner entrance of 30th Street Station
to the entrances of the 30th Street subway station which would have to be large enough to provide protection from the elements and high enough
to clear vehicles at the 30th Street intersection which could be a compromise of some kind over reopening the long closed passageway.

Reopening this passageway today not only would at least partially displace a tenant (the bar in the SW corner area) it would require a large scale
construction project to install at least two escalators and rebuild and reconstruct the passageway areas.

It would be good to have a enclosed connection between these two stations again but unless someone is willing to step forward and offer to pay
for this restoration and for the cost of protecting this property this more then likely will not be rebuilt.

MACTRAXX

unless 76 of ramp traffic is rerouted an at grade solution does not solve enough problems. during heavy rains the 30th st corner does not drain properly forcing pedestrians into traffic. at rush hour 30th st is a cluster of cars and people vying for space. It's probably worth noting that closure probably made sense in the mid 1980's but ridership is up and the area around 30th st is a boomtown. timing is everything.

alewifebp wrote:That's a good question that I don't have an answer for. Perhaps usage? Even obscure stations in NYC have plenty of patronage, as well as the tunnels that lead to them, making them not as dangerous.

I would say that's a big part of it, although I do hear about crime in the outlying stations, it's unlikely you'd see more than some pickpocketing with how busy Manhatten stations are.

I also feel like NYC has more police on patrol. Walking around the Port Authority Bus Terminal station, I saw at least 5 troopers, heavily armed with rifles, keeping an eye out.