Delaware and Raritan River Railroad-General Discussion

R&DB wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:31 am

RailsEast wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:54 pm Got Sand?

https://www.nj.com/news/2023/07/hudson- ... rward.html

Thanks Chris. We may actually see some sand trains in our lifetimes. Last one I remember was late '80s when I lived on Maxim Road.

Not on this line any time soon.

Haven’t heard anything from my people about it. Funnily enough I remember a lot of people saying the sand would be for the Portal Bridge too and that didn’t happen.

Unfortunately, sand from Clayton won't be happening for the foreseeable future. They are too small an enterprise for that project anyway, including logistically. Bidders for that project aren't going to factor in costs for reactivation of a rail line, they are going to get sand from their usual places, in volume, and fast. They are builders after all, not railfans.

I think many on here, including myself, would, love to re-live the halcyon days of a 1970s CNJ move down through Woodmansie. But unfortunately, times have changed. I consider the FIT-SOUS line rehab the real gift.

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But bear in mind that the entire Southern has already been completely restored from the Clayton sand mine in Woodmansie all the way to Lakehurst, including the grade crossings. The only thing still in need of rehabbing is a 5-mile overgrown segment from Lakehurst to South Lakewood. That connection will enable sand trains to operate all the way to Brown's Yard.

There are still areas on that track that need work. It’s stuff that can be completely relatively quickly so I guess they are holding off for whenever they are ready. (Whenever that time will come, if it even does) I don’t think Clayton would pass on costs of reopening the line to customers.

Also C&D isn’t gonna open up to Lakehurst. Not willingly at least.

Brush removal Lakewood-lakehurst was in the grant application but no mention of track rehab. Also mentioned was the reconnect to the Lakehurst-Woodmansie segment.
It would seem to not make sense for C&D (D&RR) to do that part unless and until there was a need for it.
Incidentally last time I was through Lakehurst, I caught out of the corner of my eye what appeared to be fresh ballast under the OceanGro loader. Did not look close, can't be sure.
Incidentally, work on the FIT seems to be at a dead slow or stop, with the same equipment sitting in the same spots for the last several days, and only an occasional worker seen.

As far as track goes, Lakehurst to Lakewood doesn’t need much. It had ties put in at the end of 2004 following some sort of lawsuit by a Conrail engineer. Ties were added and tamped from Second Street in Lakewood all the way to Lakehurst. Even ran a special train after the work was done with NS 5311 and CSX 4405. This train had six rail infrastructure experts from around the world riding in the trailing engine and they all had computers with them that monitored track conditions. Very weird train. I have the pictures of it if anyone is interested.

The issue now is a washout near Whitesville, the lack of crossing equipment at Whitesville Road, and the condition of the bridge under Route 70 in Lakehurst. Has a new deck but the pilings are bad due to NS 5311 being parked on it back in 2005. Track in Lakehurst needs work too but nothing major, and that’s on both sides of the road.

No, they weren't from all around the world. Whoever'd told you that once again gave you inaccurate information. They were from a local engineering firm contracted by CR.

The bridge is not defective because of NS 5311 was parked on it. Again, false information. The bridge was failing well before split date. An engine being tied down on the bridge for weeks wouldn't have made a difference nor did it compound any of the bridge's issues. Speaking of bridges, one of those bridges beyond Lakewood maybe round Whiteville took a hit in one of those big storms. It may need replacement or some extensive remediation before a train can operate over it. Those repairs alone will take some time and $$$. Tunnel project may be completed by then.

CR2721's post is accurate. Your not gonna see Clayton sand trains. Even if they bid for the job, they'd need to truck their materials to the site. Throwing rail movement in the mix only adds more $$$, time and restrictions.

Bag-man was the one who picked up the train after SA91 left it there and he personally told my friend who was there that parking it on the bridge would damage it, and when he moved the engine off, the rails were noticeably more bent than they before. After that the only other time an engine parked on it was CSX 4423 in 08-09. Picture is on the internet somewhere. I think RailsEast took it?

I don’t know what state it was in before 5311 broke it minus the deck being bad, but the state of the bridges was a big factor in the line being cut back to Cross Street. Final train to Lakehurst was December 3, 2010 with NS 5281.

When the bridge near Whitesville was replaced in 2014-2015, the job was done in under a month by a firm that regularly repairs rail bridges. I haven’t walked out there in a while so I don’t know exactly how bad it might be. Might go look Friday. Depends on what needs doing that day cause I’ll be busy all weekend.

Baggy's a good guy and all but what you posted looks like a joke gone bad. Let's break this down in reality. First, parking an engine a bridge isn't gonna bend the rails. If the track was in such a state, then all rail on that line would be considered defective and need replacement. Sounds more like complaints about having to walk out onto the bridge to recrew the train rather than it being left in a more suitable location. The engine had nothing to do with the bridge issues that were happening well before NS took over CR. Enough with this nonsense of an engine breaking the bridge. The engine didn't have any effect on the bridge. Inspections by certified bridge inspectors (not a conductor) after this fantasy of the NS 5311 breaking the bridge, showed NO damage that you speak of with bent rails or any cause attributed to weight or excessive weight on the span. The problem with the bridge relates to lateral movement of support components. If it'd been vertical movement, maybe then you can blame the weight on the span. Again, this's from real certified professionals who do these things for a living. Train conductors and engineers AREN'T qualified professionals who can validly make determination of a bridges integrity. Please stop spreading false information about an NS engine breaking this bridge. I get it, we all don't care for NS but they've got nothing to do with any of this.

I never said NS had anything to do with it?

At first I believed that sand trains were the primary reason for rehabing the railroad from Freehold to Farmingdale and Woodmansie to Lakehurst. After logical thinking and watching how governments waste money and the crooked kickbacks….I think I have to agree that sand trains are a pipe dream. I in-vision after letting the southern go into dis repair from Collingswood north and eventually the lumber business shrinking in Lakewood our beloved rail line will be cut back to Freehold once again. New Jersey is no longer an industrial state. There really isn’t a need for heavy freight trains. As far as passenger trains go. Let’s face it. People love their cars. Especially with all electric being forced upon us. Technology is growing by leaps and bounds only g d knows what the next 10 years will bring but unfortunately short line railroads will be a thing of the past. So let us all enjoy the once a week 5 to 10 car freight train as long as it lasts

The primary reason for Farmingdale to Freehold is to get freight off NJT. It was probably gonna happen with or without sand trains sooner or later. Should the sand trains ever start it would be beneficial to them as the new Raritan River Bridge will finally remove the accursed weight limit between Perth and South Amboy. That’ll help Woodhaven too, as they’ll be able to put more product in each car.

Speaking of Woodhaven, they aren’t going anywhere any time soon. The developers are taking this state over. Every square inch of forest or otherwise available space is slowly being cleared for more stores, homes, etc. Sometimes they even knock down buildings that have no issues at all just put a new one in its space. Its never gonna stop, and nowhere is safe. Woodhaven being in the region gives them a near unlimited supply of well priced materials to continue this slow, endless cycle of developers building whatever they please with zero regard for the environment or the people. It’s the sole reason the Southern is still around despite so many people wanting nothing to do with it, or otherwise get rid of it.

First and foremost, from the many years that sand train rumors have flooded around this forum, I was under the impression that if sand trains were to happen for the Gateway Tunnels, the sand would be shipped by rail to the construction site, where it would be mixed into concrete/used for whatever directly at the site. If that's the case, how would trucks play in there?

In addition, if not for the Pine Barrens/Pinelands being protected land, there would still be sand trains on the Southern, and possibly down to Woodmansie would still be possible. With the Pine Barrens/Pinelands being protected, any new construction/expansion of sand pits in the area is forbidden, which is why a lot of sand pits went bust in the 80s/90s after decades of mining with no expansion. Every other forest except the Pine Barrens is being eaten up by developers right now.

As for an engine breaking a bridge, that just couldn't happen. If parking an engine on a bridge 'breaks' it, then that same engine going over said bridge with a loaded train would certainly make it collapse.

@baju First and foremost, the lumber traffic in Lakewood is not going to dry up, lol. As long as the Lakewood crowd has the ability to build stuff anywhere they want, there will be a huge demand for Woodhaven's services and products for years to come.

Second, the Freehold-Farmingdale reconnection is meant to take trains off of NJT. Not sure why NJT is so annoyed with a 1-2 times a week freight train, but that's just how it is. If Central Jersey is no longer industrial and has no hopes for industrial expansion, then NJT/the state of NJ would not have spent a lot of money making an alternative route for freight trains to follow, and would not be spending a lot of money on the new Raritan River Bridge to ensure that it can handle Plate F cars, both in terms of weight and height.

Lastly, NJT service is needed in this area. You can have all the electric cars in the world to drive people around here, but their manufacturing is horrific for the environment, the electrical grid is currently not able to handle all those electric cars and probably will never be able to as long as the state government here pushes "green" energy without nuclear energy in the equation, and it still won't solve the congestion issues.

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:46 pm If that's the case, how would trucks play in there?

Trucks would come into play due to the Lack of Sand Trains .

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:46 pm Not sure why NJT is so annoyed with a 1-2 times a week freight train, but that's just how it is.

I imagine every time this is said that “NJT” is just a suit with a cigar angrily shaking his fist at a train being operated on a railroad, where trains operate

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:46 pm If Central Jersey is no longer industrial and has no hopes for industrial expansion, then NJT/the state of NJ would not have spent a lot of money making an alternative route for freight trains to follow

You ever see what this state will spend its money on ? They’ll pocket what’s left from this project and take your mother out to dinner

(No Ill will with the mother comment. It’d probably be upscale Italian anyway.)