Defunct R3 West Chester service

Delaware County and West Chester are all for restoring rail service, but Chester County isn't so enthusiastic. We'll see how the extension to Wawa goes. I don't like how slow SEPTA is at doing everything, but that's government for ya. Hand this over to a private developer and we would have service to Wawa in one or two years, and maybe to West Chester in three.

I'm sure that SEPTA would rather see people use the Route 104 bus through 69th Street than restore West Chester rail service on the R-3. This is somewhat ironic, at least in a rail sense, since the 104 is the bustituted version of the old Red Arrow West ChesterTrolley.

The West Chester trolley route had the advantange of being more direct, going through Newtown Square to 69th Street Station instead of first going south towards Wawa and then Media and back north to Philly. If it were still a trolley, I can see how it would be a better route than the R3 to West Chester.

No argument there---- the trolley was always the primary mode of transportation between West Chester and Philly even though use of the line required a change at 69th Street and use of the then very slow MFSE. It is ironic that the West Chester trolley is probably the only trolley line in the country that was bustituted because it had more traffic than its current roster of cars, and track available could handle.

walt wrote:.... It is ironic that the West Chester trolley is probably the only trolley line in the country that was bustituted because it had more traffic than its current roster of cars, and track available could handle.

Yes. I grew up in that area. West Chester Pike was 2 lanes with the trolley down one side; a good portion was single-tracked. The Highway Department (PennDOT's predecessor, but with a more accurate name) decided to widen W/C Pike by adding 2 more lanes separated from the original 2 by a median occupying the trolley ROW. Because there was already a fair amount of existing construction along both sides of the pike, the median couldn't be made wide enough to accomodate both a double-tracked ROW and turn lanes at major intersections.

This was in the early 1950s so the mentality was that cars could have priority if the "old-fashioned" trolleys were replaced with "modern" diesel buses. A referendum of some sort was held and (surprisingly) the residents voted about 4-to-1 in favor of trying to keep the trolleys. However the Highway Department had made its plans and went ahead anyway.

The last car to West Chester ran on June 4, 1954. Service was maintained to Westgate Hills until 1958 when it was cut back to Manoa. The Ardmore spur shared the Pike until it closed in 1966. A short length of track served the old shops until facilities were consolidated at Victory Avenue, so now all that remains is a stub used for storage.

I posted this in the other R3 forum, but I believe this one had mention of the Octraro railroad. Did the Octraro line ever see passenger service? If so, anyone have a listing of its stations and locations?

capuzfu wrote:I posted this in the other R3 forum, but I believe this one had mention of the Octraro railroad. Did the Octraro line ever see passenger service? If so, anyone have a listing of its stations and locations?

I compiled this from about 15 different historical maps. I'm sure I'm missing something and I don't have exact locations for every station, but I found a lot.

From Wawa:

Chester Heights (Valleybrook Road)
Markham (Baltimore Pike and Cheyney Road)
Concordville (Concord and Station roads)
Brandywine Summit (Wilmington Pike)
Chadds Ford (Creek Road at Station Road)
Chadds Ford Jct. (west of Reading Railroad crossing)
Mendenhall (Kennett Pike)
Rosedale (Hillendale Road (I think))
Kennett Square (Cedar and Broad streets)
Toughkenamon (Main Street and Newark Road)
Avondale (Pennsylvania Avenue and Church Street (I think))
West Grove (Prospect and Railroad avenues)
Kelton (Jennersville Road)
Elkview (Newark Road)
Lincoln University (Elkdale and Walnut roads)
Oxford (Market and Railroad streets)
Barnsley (Baltimore Pike)
Nottingham (Christine Road)
Sylmar (Pennsylvania side of the state line)
Rising Sun (Queen Street)
Colora (Colora Road)
Liberty Grove (Liberty Grove Road)
Rowlandsville (Moore Road)
Octoraro (junction with Columbia and Port Deposit Branch)

-asg

I believe from a business view if someone could demonstrate that there are four or five stations along an expanded R3 that could show high demand that there would be a good chance for restoration. But much of the demographic is a bus using group and probaby more local commutes then a higher paid, further commuting group that would take a train. I don't have much experence with the South R2 but I would probaby figure that to be a similar line to an expanded R3 rider wise.

stcommodore wrote:I believe from a business view if someone could demonstrate that there are four or five stations along an expanded R3 that could show high demand that there would be a good chance for restoration. But much of the demographic is a bus using group and probaby more local commutes then a higher paid, further commuting group that would take a train. I don't have much experence with the South R2 but I would probaby figure that to be a similar line to an expanded R3 rider wise.

I think a station in Westtown would do very well serving Philadelphia commuters from the eastern Chestern county area, a West Chester University station would do very well during the school year (like Temple U and University City). I also think Downtown West Chester would see a fair share of reverse commute traffic although most probably ise Septa buses already and would not convert to the higher priced regional rail. I think Wawa will definitely see a great deal of service and I am sure the need can be demonstrated for a few other stations west of Wawa. I think this line would benefit from express trains inbound from West Chester expressing after Elwyn and the outbound expresses making the first stop Elwyn. I really don't see restoration of service to West Chester as necessarily detracting from R5 ridership either. I think you would end up converting people who presently drive into the city into RR riders (provided the right level of service). The R3 reactivation to West Chester really is not some far out, never to be seen, dream either, especially since restoration is already being planned to Wawa.

I agree that the Westtown, WCU, and downtown West Chester stations would do quite well. There are acutally several projects planned within a couple of blocks of the old Market Street station. Despite some of the problems with the area around the old train station, it seems that development keeps expanding in that direction. The borough is booming and since most residents oppose raising the height restrictions on buildings in the center of town, the only way to build is out.

http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm ... 7782&rfi=6

http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm ... 7782&rfi=6

One of the main topics of the discussions around the proposed developments is how to accomodate the increased traffic in the downtown area. There is some discussion of a shuttle bus - which never work, but I guess they have to pretend it will. Unfortunately, I guess no one is counting on the trains returning any time soon.

I know there are a number of people in the area of old West Chester line who take the R5 and would likely switch if R3 service returned, but considering the price of fuel, the R5 may be stuffed to capacity in a few years anway. The real nightmare in the area is traffic on 202. Some way to get those commuters onto the R3 will really help girdlock in that area (along with a likely very expensive reconstruction of the interchange in that area).

Forgive the piggy-backing on my commercial site.

http://www.jenkinslaw.cc/R3/r3_chesco.htm

This is slow with IE, but managable with FireFox.

capuzfu wrote:Does anyone know what bridge exactly is the one Septa's cites as the reason service to West Chester on the R3 was stopped. The West Chester Rail Road is now open from West Chester to Glen Mills. Don't some of these trains on the West Chester charter and tourist railroad leave from 30th St. Station. If so, wouldn't that require them to somewhere transverse this bridge?

No, the charter service originates in West Chester, and goes as far east as Glen Mills, then returns to West Chester. I don't believe there is any thru service between the SEPTA section (Phila to Elwyn) and the West CHester RR section (except for quary trains from Glen Mills to Philly).

Whether passenger or otherwise, at least an engine goes across whichever bridge SEPTA is referring to, and sometimes it's pulling hoppers. West Chester Railroad number 1813(?) is leased to SEPTA for MOW work while their other engines are being used. And as mentioned several times, AMTRAK pulls hoppers out of the quarry which is less than a mile east of the Glen Mills station.

capuzfu wrote:

octr202 wrote:

capuzfu wrote:

octr202 wrote:

capuzfu wrote:Is the Octorara Branch what later became the R3 to West Chester? Was the line in from Chester a commuter rail or freight?

.

The Octoraro Branch was washed out in storms in the early 70's in both Maryland and between Chadds Ford and Wawa. The section between Chadds Ford (crossing of the Reading Wilminton & Northern branch) was restored by the Octoraro Railway in the late 70's for freight service, via a conenction off the W&N. Its still operating today under the Penn Eastern/East Penn shortline family. I believe the last non-electric passenger service to the Octoraro Branch was in the 1950's. After that, all service was to Media, with limited service beyond to West Chester.

.

Where is the restored Octoraro Branch? I don't know what you mean by crossing of the Reading Wilminton & Northern branch? Where does this happen at?

At this point, the section in operation is from Chadds Ford (near where the Brandywine River Museum is on Rt. 1) at the junction, down to Nottingham (serves Herr's plant).

The Octoraro Railway in the 1970's installed a connecting track at the diamond in Chadds Ford to connect the ex-Reading W&N Branch to the ex-PRR Octoraro Branch. Prior to that the two lines had crossed but never been connected to each other at Chadds Ford.

There is a freight railroad crossing just after the Brandywine River Museum on Rt 1. Is that the Reading W&N branch? If I understand correct the Octoraro railway runs semi-parallel to Rt. 1 but never crosses it. Is this crossing still active?

The rails run continuously from Wilmington, DE to Coatesville, PA, but I think the W&N is only the section south of the Octoraro Branch, with the section north of the Octorara Branch (and Rt 1) operated as a tourist railroad named Brandywine Valley Railroad. The line follows the Brandywine Creek, and there's a canoe company about midway between Rt 1 and Rt 30. In the summers, you can take a train trip upstream to Coatesville and paddle back down to the canoe place (or canoe down to Chadds Ford and take the train back north.)

(That was the deal a few years back, anyway.)

Also, the Octoraro grade crossings at Rt 202 and at Concord Road were paved over more than 10 years ago, so that link is probably toast.

I"m not in the area, so I can't report on recent developments, but I believe the Brandywine Scenic hasn't run in some time. That operated on the northern section of the active W&N, usually based in Lenape.

That's not to be confused with the Brandywine Valley, which is/was the switching railroad for Lukins Steel in Coatesville. In Octoraro Railway days, line from South Modena up to Coatesville was BVRY's, but OCTR operated into Coatesville for interchange.

The Octoraro Railway, and successor Delaware Valley, as well as BVRY all operated the entire remaining portion of the W&N (Coatesville to Wilmington). As far as I am aware, the latest incarnation of East Penn (ESPN?) is still operating the full (remaining) line. (The original W&N continued north of Coatesville and headed towards Reading.)

Back when I lived in this area, there was a proposal to extend service from Elwyn to Wawa and build a park and ride lot near Route 1 - is this still a viable proposal or is it now dead?

Jon