CSS&SB News 6-1-09

jlaroccoii wrote:See, now thats information that could is useful. Now that I have some more insite its helps a lot. The one question I still have remaining, what about grade crossings? Are there still going to be the same amount? What I'm getting at is, how are the tracks going to work on the surface? Will 11th street still be a two direction street or one way?

Well, again, the engineering has not even been started yet, but we're anticipating that the number of grade crossings would be cut in half. 11th Street would likely become a one way street, with the south lane being taken up by the railroad ROW.

jlaroccoii wrote:I try not to make snap judgements. So forgive me if I seem rude.

It's OK. I'm passionate about railroading too. I just get my Irish up sometimes. I apologize if I came off a little strong.

Well, downtown Michigan City needs some vigor that brings people to the downtown than where all the major businesses reside now to the south where places like WalMart, Mejiers, the mall etc are at. Makes me feel bad about some of the downtown buildings getting razed. A fellow, can't remember his name right off now, he had some brass for sale and he worked or owned that camera shop on the south side and sold me a couple of Virginian EL-1's right there. Right next to the ole South Shore I bought them...heh.

You have to think beyond the railfan to get interest into the Downtown. It would take more than the railroad to do it, it takes business interest and the attraction to want to bring the people in. For all the other cities with regular streetcar service, Michigan City has a rareity. Michigan City needs to look at it and try to do something.
Chicago has been constantly dynamic and a new SS station and so forth.

Thanx for that data JB, that helps spells the issues on hand for such a project.

Let me note again around here in Mishawaka a new shopping center was built, however all the buildings have this old town look, actually looking a lot like the downtown area, but well, looking better not run down looking. Looking a lot like the buildings on 11th street near the station. So something can be done, you just need to find the right developers and what could be done.
You have to make it a place you want to come to than..oh, lets run to the mall, or lets go to Chicago...With the Casino down there, thats where everybody is hitting...can people get to the casino very well via the South Shore? Looks like its better by car. well anyways.
I wonder if you could convince the guy who has the oven fired pizzas to relocate downtown next to the tracks.

jlaroccoii wrote:See, now thats information that could is useful. Now that I have some more insite its helps a lot. The one question I still have remaining, what about grade crossings? Are there still going to be the same amount?

Just curious, but did you read the linked article I quoted? For much of what you said I'm not even sure that you read what I quoted. Many answers were in the article and supplied quotes.

But the good news is that jb9152 supplied more detail that was not in the article ... details I was hoping would be posted. (If not here they should be on Michigan City's website or the NICTD web site - but it appears that even the West Lake study can only be found on via Google. ) I expected that the entire new alignment would be "south of the curb". Seeing that the south lane will remain railroad seems odd. The entire lots on the south side of the roads will need to be bought and they are only going to use the north portion of the lots?

The 11th St station is only moving two blocks west (three if you count where the front of a west bound train stops).

I'm wondering if something different can be done for 10th St ... head south behind the houses. I'll have to take a look at the GIS.

Thanks for the details jb9152 ... and for the questions jlaroccoii. Discussion is what a forum is for!

dinwitty wrote:You have to make it a place you want to come to than..oh, lets run to the mall, or lets go to Chicago...With the Casino down there, thats where everybody is hitting...can people get to the casino very well via the South Shore? Looks like its better by car. well anyways.
I wonder if you could convince the guy who has the oven fired pizzas to relocate downtown next to the tracks.

The mall is Lighthouse Place ... a decent place to go. With a major station I'm sure the casinos could be convinced to run a shuttle bus. All they need is customers and a little promotion.

justalurker66 wrote:But the good news is that jb9152 supplied more detail that was not in the article ... details I was hoping would be posted. (If not here they should be on Michigan City's website or the NICTD web site - but it appears that even the West Lake study can only be found on via Google. ) I expected that the entire new alignment would be "south of the curb". Seeing that the south lane will remain railroad seems odd. The entire lots on the south side of the roads will need to be bought and they are only going to use the north portion of the lots?

The south lane alone is not enough for a double-track ROW, which needs to take into account adequate distance between track centers, buffer distance to both sides of the ROW, and room for all of the ancillary infrastructure to support higher speed electric operation - catenary structures, signals, more sophisticated grade crossing warning systems, etc. Not to mention a new high-level platform station.

Plus, when you think about it, how do you buy half a lot? Would you only raze half the house?

justalurker66 wrote:I'm wondering if something different can be done for 10th St ... head south behind the houses. I'll have to take a look at the GIS.

The plan is to stay in 11th Street, eliminating the slow speed curve at 10th Street (Amtrak Crossing) Interlocking. Very very conceptual design and drawings at this point. More extensive and detailed engineering needs to be done, but the conceptual plan is coming together pretty quickly to indicate an 11th Street alignment, with curve remediation and/or superelevation to allow speeds up to 60 MPH.

justa;
I did read the article. I just wanted some more insite on the whole thing. For what it is worth I got answers to questions I had. Could be I just don't understand. I get thickheaded sometimes. Like jb9152, I get my dander up easy too. Its the Sicilian in me. Which would explain the butting of heads

In any event, I'm glad it will at least stays in the general area it is now. I do agree that the northend of the city needs an overhaul. If it helps I'm for it. It will just be sad for me to see the South Shore not running down the street anymore.

On a side note, it was funny to see my brother-in-laws face when one came down the middle of 11th. It was coming up from behind us. I saw it coming and he didn't. He's from Illinois and he never even noticed the tracks. It was priceless. )

jb9152 wrote:The south lane alone is not enough for a double-track ROW, which needs to take into account adequate distance between track centers, buffer distance to both sides of the ROW, and room for all of the ancillary infrastructure to support higher speed electric operation - catenary structures, signals, more sophisticated grade crossing warning systems, etc. Not to mention a new high-level platform station.

I agree that half a street isn't enough ... which is why (as stated in your post) the lots to the south would be needed for the 2nd track. What caught me was that they are in the old street at all. I expected the new track alignment to be completely off of the south edge of the street. As you stated, the whole lot has to bought anyways. Using any of the street ROW for the new railroad seems unneeded (unless it is a buffer so idiots don't knock down the catenary).

The plan is to stay in 11th Street, eliminating the slow speed curve at 10th Street (Amtrak Crossing) Interlocking. Very very conceptual design and drawings at this point. More extensive and detailed engineering needs to be done, but the conceptual plan is coming together pretty quickly to indicate an 11th Street alignment, with curve remediation and/or superelevation to allow speeds up to 60 MPH.

After looking at the LaPorte Co GIS site and Google Earth I can see the new 11th St alignment better. Connecting the end of 11th St at Tennessee St to 10th St at Willard Ave gives a nice straight line with a gentle curve at Chicago Rd. I expect there will be two gentle curves but 60 shouldn't be a problem once all the homes and the factory is out of the way.

The 400's / 700's starting and finishing downtown will be an interesting move. Plus any time cars are cut or added to South Bend trains they will need extras to get the cars between Franklin St and the yard. But I'm years ahead of the change.

While losing street running won't be a joy for railfans having a parallel 11th St and car movements between the Franklin St station and the yard will add something new to watch. Although with Carroll Ave closed to passengers I expect less access to the yard.

justalurker66 wrote:I agree that half a street isn't enough ... which is why (as stated in your post) the lots to the south would be needed for the 2nd track. What caught me was that they are in the old street at all. I expected the new track alignment to be completely off of the south edge of the street. As you stated, the whole lot has to bought anyways. Using any of the street ROW for the new railroad seems unneeded (unless it is a buffer so idiots don't knock down the catenary).

It's not that surprising if you look at how shallow the lots are on the south side of 11th. Half the street, plus the sidewalk, plus the lots will be needed.

justalurker66 wrote:After looking at the LaPorte Co GIS site and Google Earth I can see the new 11th St alignment better. Connecting the end of 11th St at Tennessee St to 10th St at Willard Ave gives a nice straight line with a gentle curve at Chicago Rd. I expect there will be two gentle curves but 60 shouldn't be a problem once all the homes and the factory is out of the way.

The 400's / 700's starting and finishing downtown will be an interesting move. Plus any time cars are cut or added to South Bend trains they will need extras to get the cars between Franklin St and the yard. But I'm years ahead of the change.

No, not necessarily. The cars will be cut or added at Carroll Avenue. There just won't be a passenger stop there anymore, that's all. As for the 400s and 700s, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if those became equipment extras, and were taken out of the public timetable. They don't carry any passengers as it is, and their primary purpose has always been to position equipment at South Bend or bring it back to the yard from South Bend.

I still don't get where they'll shoehorn the tracks in. Will they use eminent domain?

M&Eman wrote:I still don't get where they'll shoehorn the tracks in. Will they use eminent domain?

No, not if it can be helped. The properties would be purchased.

It seems from JB's postings that the southern side of 11th will become the main track 1 and the sidewalk or lots will become main track 2 if/when the second track is installed. 11th will likely become one-way westbound, unless the center where the tracks are today becomes a paved eastbound auto lane. I wouldn't doubt 3 of every four grade crossings are dumped too.

jb9152 wrote:It's not that surprising if you look at how shallow the lots are on the south side of 11th. Half the street, plus the sidewalk, plus the lots will be needed.

The majority of the lots go back to the alley. There are a few on side streets that have two lots where the 11th St lot is one lot deep.
I've marked most of the "one lot deep" with a red line on the following graphic (2mb GIF).
http://justalurker.com/michcity-csssb.gif

I don't mind using up some of the street for this project. It just seems that the space between the alley to the south and the street should be enough. Then again, building a corridor as wide as in Gary (which is three tracks between two roads) would take up even more space.

Tadman wrote:It seems from JB's postings that the southern side of 11th will become the main track 1 and the sidewalk or lots will become main track 2 if/when the second track is installed. 11th will likely become one-way westbound, unless the center where the tracks are today becomes a paved eastbound auto lane. I wouldn't doubt 3 of every four grade crossings are dumped too.

I'm expecting the current eastbound lane to be pretty empty above ground. Perhaps cantenary poles in the current terrace (for rails south of them).

justalurker66 wrote:The majority of the lots go back to the alley. There are a few on side streets that have two lots where the 11th St lot is one lot deep.
I've marked most of the "one lot deep" with a red line on the following graphic (2mb GIF).
http://justalurker.com/michcity-csssb.gif

I don't mind using up some of the street for this project. It just seems that the space between the alley to the south and the street should be enough. Then again, building a corridor as wide as in Gary (which is three tracks between two roads) would take up even more space.

The reason that the entire lot would be bought is because even if you only need a part of it (which is likely the case), it's pretty tough to buy half a lot, or raze half a house.

Tadman wrote:It seems from JB's postings that the southern side of 11th will become the main track 1 and the sidewalk or lots will become main track 2 if/when the second track is installed. 11th will likely become one-way westbound, unless the center where the tracks are today becomes a paved eastbound auto lane. I wouldn't doubt 3 of every four grade crossings are dumped too.

Actually, when both main tracks are in, the northern of the pair will be Track 2, to correspond with the current configuration of the line.

jb9152 wrote:The reason that the entire lot would be bought is because even if you only need a part of it (which is likely the case), it's pretty tough to buy half a lot, or raze half a house.

So NICTD is buying the entire lot and refusing to use all of the land that they are buying and choosing to continue to eat up the street for no good reason. Please look at the map I posted. See how deep the lots are. NICTD would buy a 100ft deep lot and still need the street? Most of the lots are deep enough.

There are a couple, such as 1101 Franklin that are only 24ft "deep" measured from the 11th St property line. If NICTD is not intending on buying the next property (1103 Franklin - another 45ft in this case) it would leave them with a narrow path. 1102 Franklin is 105ft "deep" from the 11th St property line. It seems odd to throw away 75ft of the majority of properties and use a couple narrow lots as the guideline.

BTW: No one is mentioning razing half a house except you. I'm looking at FULL lots and the entire run from Sheridan to East Michigan. I've never said the full lot should not be bought. What I keep saying is the full lot should be USED, before encroaching on the 10th St/11th St road right of ways.

Perhaps after clearing those properties the lines can be redrawn and the other "half" (or 75% if NICTD is really not going to use the land) will be sold off for alley facing properties or to the neighbors. That might mitigate the cost some. But keeping 11th St a usable street (with two way traffic and parking for the businesses) is also important.