Crossing Gates

I asked this question to several people and most recently my instuctor at UP trainining, no one seems to know why, In England all road crossings have 4 gates, blocking the whole road on both sides, why don't we do that here?

powerpro69 wrote: ...
have 4 gates, blocking the whole road on both sides, why don't we do that here?

Quick answer: Because we are cheap & stupid.

Expanded answer: The rail system in this country (USA) grew very, very quickly, as opposed to most system in Europe, that expanded in a more controlled manner. As a result, RR's were hardpressed to do everything at once, so they laid lightweight rail, minimal protections (a crossbuck), easiest routing, etc. Then as traffic developed, they would upgrade rails, Right of Way, grades, services, ammenities, crossing protection (lights & bells). But it always seemed they were behind, playing catchup to the ever-expanding needs of the road. Eventually, they might work up to crossing gates (one on each side). "Quad" protection seems to be far, far away!
And it is still that way, all about money vs benefit. To some degree, also that way with the airlines. When enough people die, then it is worth spending X amount of $ to fix the problem. What is a person worth? About a million $. Similar concept on the rails, too expensive to fix it so no one gets hurt.

Thanks for the answer, it does seem kind of short sighted as far as the saving money aspect of it, I mean, one wreck and susequent derail, like that one in LA last year, costs how much?

I would have thought that as much as the fed stick their noses in, that this would be a biggie on there list

The issue that contributes to the complexity and cost of a 4 gate system is that there must be some system to keep a vehicle from getting "trapped" in the crossing when all gates are down.

In the past, the usual decision was to go for 2 gates and provide an escape route vs an accident caused by someone trapped inside the gates.

In addition to the cost factor, there was the liability issue to the railroad of someone trapped on the crossing by the gates vs the obvious negligence of someone who drives around the gate in their lane into the path of a train.

There are presently projects underway in some areas to install 4 gate crossing to protect high speed passenger rail lines.

See section 5.3 of this FRA report:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/890

Are most of the 4 quadrant gates sequenced - in other words, the barrier on the side of the crossing facing the flow of traffic begins descending first, and then the barrier on the other side starts to descend, which would help greatly in preventing vehicles from getting trapped?
Actually I still believe the easiest method which would work in almost all cases is a median (can be very narrow - 4"-6" wide, 3" high curb w/ plastic posts or iron fencing) for a long enough distance from the crossing which would discourage driving around the lowered gate (accepting that the handful who would drive fairly long distances on a divided roadway against the flow of traffic are eventually gonna be goners anyway...)

All this to protect people who willfully do not WANT this protection; who see the flashers and gates and decide they value a few minutes more than their own lives.

I say: Let the Darwinian forces continue to clean the gene pool. Put digital CAMERAS at every grade crossing so as to SHOW the willful, stupid, irrational behavior these fatalities engage in just before collision.

we , as a former english colony , don't have quadrant gates . Our crossing are similiar to the usa ones .
historically , i belive the english ones were manually operated , generally a signal box was right beside the crossing .
Also in those days , private motoring was the domain of the upper classes , and done at a lesuirely pace .

conrail_engineer wrote:All this to protect people who willfully do not WANT this protection; who see the flashers and gates and decide they value a few minutes more than their own lives.

OK, this has no bearing on anything.
Consider - a vehicle is starting to cross a double track crossing as the gate starts to decend - this is PERFECTLY legal, as it should be. (Note, I am not saying the gate is already down, or significantly down - it begins to descend as the vehicle is entering the crossing zone).
If this is a four quadrant crossing - the gate on the other side MUST allow for this vehicle to safely exit the crossing (of course, with half gates this is not an issue). What I wish to know is how is this done, either in the US or other countries. I can only think of sequencing the gate closings so the near side gate goes first (either a cross bar, or those fence like gates which decend across the road in tracks, like a garage door), and then the far side gate somewhat later.
Remember we are talking about realistic safety solutions, not random silliness. OK, realizing that total grade separation of everything except the most minor industrial spurs is still unrealistic, so far I like half gates w/ median barriers for low-traffic lines, and quadrants for high volume line - AND smart crossing gate timing controls (basing gate closing start on the expected arrival of the train) - having traffic idling for no visible reason is a waste of time and energy, and really pisses people off...and yes, that is an extremely important consideration, and one which must be addressed.

Dave, you're from Kiwi-land (the correct Maori name, not Aotearoa as is often thought) and not the 'West Island', correct? Then you are not allowed to be in this safety discussion, considering the 1-lane bridges with 'street running' track found on the South Island... :p

Sir Ray wrote:Consider - a vehicle is starting to cross a double track crossing as the gate starts to decend - this is PERFECTLY legal, as it should be.

It is not legal because the flashers and bells must be active for 3-5 seconds before the gates start to descend. This gives any approaching vehicle adequate warning to stop short of the crossing before the gates are descending.

The NY State V&T law Section 1170(b) is very specific on this:
"No person shall drive any vehicle through, around or under any crossing gate or barrier at a railroad crossing while such barrier is closed or is being opened or closed".

In any event, 4 gate systems are not only timed to give traffic a chance to clear before the exit gates descend, there is a requirment for a system to detect vehicles in the crossing and hold the exit gates up until the crossing is clear.

So, idiot drivers can still drive around the gate in their lane and prevent the exit gates from operating up until the point the exit gate on their approach side actually descends all the way to block them from entering the crossing.

clearblock wrote:

Sir Ray wrote:Consider - a vehicle is starting to cross a double track crossing as the gate starts to decend - this is PERFECTLY legal, as it should be.

It is not legal because the flashers and bells must be active for 3-5 seconds before the gates start to descend. This gives any approaching vehicle adequate warning to stop short of the crossing before the gates are descending.

In any event, 4 gate systems are not only timed to give traffic a chance to clear before the exit gates descend, there is a requirment for a system to detect vehicles in the crossing and hold the exit gates up until the crossing is clear.

So, idiot drivers can still drive around the gate in their lane and prevent the exit gates from operating up until the point the exit gate on their approach side actually descends all the way to block them from entering the crossing.

Hmm, so it seems you still need a median to prevent people from driving the wrong way (against traffic) and so mucking with the system.
Good to know the far gate allows for traffic exit - I kind of figured it had to.

Sir Ray wrote:Hmm, so it seems you still need a median to prevent people from driving the wrong way (against traffic) and so mucking with the system.
Good to know the far gate allows for traffic exit - I kind of figured it had to.

Of course, the perfect loophole to this situation. Without medians people will eventually figure out how the system will work, and find a way to still get around the gates; Thereby making the four-quadrant gate system useless.

Sir Ray wrote:
Dave, you're from Kiwi-land (the correct Maori name, not Aotearoa as is often thought) and not the 'West Island', correct? Then you are not allowed to be in this safety discussion, considering the 1-lane bridges with 'street running' track found on the South Island... :p

Actually , Sir Ray , if kiwi logic was applied , it would be fine . cos trains are bigger than you , so you give way , if somewhat reluctantly .

1 lane bridges would be far too complicated for occupants of the West Island ( Australia ) .

David Benton wrote:Actually , Sir Ray , if kiwi logic was applied , it would be fine . cos trains are bigger than you , so you give way , if somewhat reluctantly .

1 lane bridges would be far too complicated for occupants of the West Island ( Australia ) .

I dunno - our (Native Kiwi - lived in Blenheim, originally from Greymouth) tour guide insisted the correct way to cross these 1 lane combo bridge was to close your eyes, pray, and step on the accelerator...

Probably as good a plan as any .
20 years ago , i toured the south island by motorcycle , in the middle of winter ( to attend the brass monkey motorbike rally ) . first challenge was riding off the rail / road ferry , onto the steel span , laced with rail tracks . there was certainly alot of praying going on then , on that icy night . plus seamen laying bets on who would come off .
after that the rail / road one lane bridges were easy , although the wooden ones were slippery . and of course you try and avoid the steel rails as much as you can . up here on the Coromandel we have single lane road bridges , there is one rail / road bridge in the bay of plenty , but closed to rail traffic now . coromandel logic is similiar to the west coast , except its only an hour from biggest city Auckland . that cities inhabitants don't seem to understanmnd the local equitte .

Hi All,

According to the latest literature on the subject, crossings that have had accidents in the past are to get such new gates. So it appears that they are closing the barn door after the horses have escaped, but they are closing the doors, eventually.

Of course, should the individual really want to commit suicide by train, all bets are off. He or she will find a way to get around all the gates and bells and whistles. When that distraught teen ager did himself in on the Metrolink tracks in San Dimas, CA, he had walked down the ROW for some distance before he was hit. He was no where near the crossing.