Connections at TRE between NJT and SEPTA

I travel to 30th st philly often, but one problem that always persists is the connection with septa at trenton. It seems NJT is always 10 mins late. Why doesnt Septa hold connections for a certain amount of time ? I always though that Septa in the mornings and evenings should go as far as new brunswick;. This way there would never be a connection issue.

Delaying departures at Trenton will then cause a NJT delay to ripple through the SEPTA system. I agree, though, misconnects have been too frequent in my experiece; perhaps a longer connection time could be planned in the future, though that would require coordination between Amtrak, NJT and SEPTA. The first two are significantly impacted by slots in the Hudson River tunnels.

Connections are listed in both the NJT and SEPTA timetables. Oftentimes, there is a significant amount of time (~15-20 minutes) between the listed connections to prevent this, even though most times there is a more immediate connection with less time (~2-5 minutes) between trains. Utilize the listed connections when planning, so that if you are able to make an earlier connection, you are early instead of late.

The Trenton Line is unique in that it is where the New York and Philadelphia watersheds overlap. I agree that NJT and SEPTA should extend service deeper into their opposing states, but politics and infrastructure prevents that from happening.

I don't know how you plan, but when I do, I list out all the connections and transfers so that I know what options are available.

SP:

I know and understand the TRE connection - I have used this service occasionally since the late 1970s and today
it is an agreement between Amtrak as the "landlord" and NJT & SEPTA as the "tenants" that govern this operation.

There is some slack in NJT train timing between Princeton Junction, Hamilton and Trenton. Take a closer look at
the schedule and you can notice it. One of the problems at TRE is where the NJT train arrives at - an "up and over"
there takes obviously more time then a across the platform transfer. Another way of insuring your connection on
weekdays is taking an earlier train if possible.

Since the Morrisville NJT Yard has been in operation it has been easier to run terminating NJT trains onto track 4
to connect with SEPTA on track 5 across the platform - instead of the sometime "nose to nose" track 5 transfer
which requires slow speed restrictions for the arriving train when the connection is present.

With the current agreement SEPTA trains can not operate past Trenton - going to NBK would be a problem because
there is no crossover near the station and no added tracks for equipment to change ends. Jersey Avenue (County)
could be a possible transfer point between SEPTA and NJT but as configured now is not set up for train access
from the south. Using JA would be far short for many transferring riders going further north and create potential
problems because of trains crossing over one or two tracks against the flow of traffic to get into the yard there.

There have been studies on a through joint local operation between Philadelphia and New York in the past
and perhaps someday - if all three parties can agree - there can be some type of service option to eliminate
the Trenton transfer. It could be as easy as a TRE crew change in either direction being one thought.

MACTRAXX

However, there is still the problem of vastly heavier ridership east of Trenton than west, leading to either having long trains running empty west of Trenton or short trains packed to the gunwales east of Trenton. Adding or dropping cars in Trenton isn't possible given the number of tracks and platforms and the FRA procedures required. It would be attractive to passengers to have a 4-car train from Suburban Station run nonstop from Trenton to Newark, but you could never justify wasting a slot into NYP on a 4-car train.

EC90 and Everyone:

This is perhaps the biggest dilemma affecting any thought of through PHS-NYP local service: The subject of
train lengths on either side of Trenton and how this problem could be dealt with...

A shorter SEPTA train would have issues in NJT territory with higher ridership and crowding a huge factor.
A longer NJT train would perhaps have cars closed off in SEPTA territory because of shorter platforms
are examples of problems that would need to be worked out for this service to be practical.

Tunnel slots into NYP are definitely a problem with the available space at or close to being maxed out.

Through local trains have been operated before - back when PC and Conrail was running everything.

I recall this example: A Trenton Line train of 2 or 3 cars - usually S2 or S3 cars with at least one that
was equipped with a lavatory - left Suburban Station around 9:00 pm and ran through to Penn Station
in NY each night changing crews in a five or so minute stop at Trenton with arrival at NYP around 12
midnight. The equipment overnighted at NYP to leave at 4:50 am again changing crews at TRE getting
to Suburban Station by 8 am. This service ended under Conrail in the early 1980s after the 1981 RRD
cutbacks and after NJT assigned a large portion of A3 cars to the two former PC electrified routes...

There were through tickets sold - which came in two halves to be collected by each crew - for a very
reasonable cost between station pairs on either side of Trenton. Back then Amtrak fares cost more then
these joint tickets did - as it always has - but the differential was far less then what it now is today. Only
premium Amtrak services: Metroliners and Parlor Cars were substantially more expensive.

The A3 cars were originally designed for the former EL M&E routes and with the slow coarse of the
re-electrification project - which was not completed until August 1984 - there was once surplus MU cars...
NJT also began running longer and more frequent trains past New Brunswick - where many MU local
trains once terminated at - because of the increasing demand for trains to Princeton Junction and Trenton.

The beginning of both NJT and SEPTA direct operation in 1983 ended any through service option thoughts
for the time - having to deal with the policies and politics of three separate operating companies was tough.

In the future - provided service problems can be worked out - through local trains can run between New York
and Philadelphia which can better benefit all riders offering the same lower cost option being used today.
The demand for this service has historically always been there on this route and it can be a success.

MACTRAXX

It seems like it would be in SEPTAs best interest to terminate in Hamilton. Enormous parking facility would certainly appeal to NJ residents wanting to visit Philadelphia without the hassle of a 20 minute transfer in Trenton, never mind penalty fare for doing so. It certainly fits into SEPTAs mission to bring people into the city on trains.

Further, SEPTA Hamilton-Trenton service would supplement NJTransit service and make commuting into Trenton more attractive on transit, incentivizing NJ to lend a helping hand to that service. Maybe it could help revitalize the city?

There is no point in NJ Transit ending service in PA anywhere before Philly, because I cant see anybody commuting from PA to Trenton. After all, Trenton is a town of state employees, and Christie banned state employees from living out of state. Any NJ transit service into PA would have to be Trenton - North Philly - 30th, which would be a great boon to Philly visitors as it would cut plenty of time from the SEPTA slow-train.

How could trains from the west terminate at Hamilton and return westward? I don't know of anywhere they could cross over until Monmouth Jct., and even then tie up the whole NEC making the move, plus all the unproductive time spent deadheading from Hamilton and back when they don't have enough equipment to handle the present service.

ExCon90 wrote:How could trains from the west terminate at Hamilton and return westward? I don't know of anywhere they could cross over until Monmouth Jct., and even then tie up the whole NEC making the move, plus all the unproductive time spent deadheading from Hamilton and back when they don't have enough equipment to handle the present service.

There's an interlocking in Hamilton. SEPTA is also exploring the possibility of building a layup yard at the old Barracks site which would be between Hamilton and Trenton (and near the interlocking I just mentioned) so if the yard does get built, an extension to Hamilton would be feasible.

I think the current start/end point on the Trenton Line is fine as it is. Sending the train to end in Hamilton or Princeton may seem a bit pointless. I say that because is there any crossings between the two stations ? If not a SEPTA train doing a reverse to start the trip would possibly hold up traffic on the NJT Side. If possible to extend the Trenton Line to Newark i think that would make the most possible sense atleast there is track switches to get across. Thats only a pipe dream. But the SEPTA/NJT connections do seem to overlap and delay. Both agencies list on the schedules consider and check the other schedule. SEPTA/ NJT pretty much slows up and sit at a signal before coming in. It's best to time and catch the appropriate trains if you want to get PHILLY OR Jersey ,NY in a particular time frame. I've missed a few NJT/SEPTA trains due to signals, and AMTRAK of course.

sammy2009 wrote:I think the current start/end point on the Trenton Line is fine as it is. Sending the train to end in Hamilton or Princeton may seem a bit pointless. I say that because is there any crossings between the two stations ? If not a SEPTA train doing a reverse to start the trip would possibly hold up traffic on the NJT Side. If possible to extend the Trenton Line to Newark i think that would make the most possible sense atleast there is track switches to get across. Thats only a pipe dream. But the SEPTA/NJT connections do seem to overlap and delay. Both agencies list on the schedules consider and check the other schedule. SEPTA/ NJT pretty much slows up and sit at a signal before coming in. It's best to time and catch the appropriate trains if you want to get PHILLY OR Jersey ,NY in a particular time frame. I've missed a few NJT/SEPTA trains due to signals, and AMTRAK of course.

Read my post above.

ekt8750 wrote:

ExCon90 wrote:How could trains from the west terminate at Hamilton and return westward? I don't know of anywhere they could cross over until Monmouth Jct., and even then tie up the whole NEC making the move, plus all the unproductive time spent deadheading from Hamilton and back when they don't have enough equipment to handle the present service.

There's an interlocking in Hamilton. SEPTA is also exploring the possibility of building a layup yard at the old Barracks site which would be between Hamilton and Trenton (and near the interlocking I just mentioned) so if the yard does get built, an extension to Hamilton would be feasible.

Maybe they can go all the way, and make it a septa station as well.

Everyone:

I noticed the suggestion about SEPTA Trenton Line trains operating to Hamilton.

Hamilton was constructed by NJT to relieve pressure on Princeton Junction and to offer an alternative to parking
in Trenton when it opened back in the late 1990s thanks to its location nearby to Interstate 295/95 and US Route 1.

This station has been very successful noting that parking additions such as the parking garage has been added in
more recent years. Hamilton-thanks to its road access-is good for commuting to New York and North Jersey points
and its location is helpful for a percentage of Bucks County residents as an example seeking NJT train service.

I have suggested using HML to park at in the past to my relatives living in Philadelphia's northern suburbs
and from what I remember this option has worked out well for traveling to NYC on NJT.

How full does parking become at HML on weekdays? One thing that I do not see is NJT providing parking for
any SEPTA commuters especially at the expense of denying any NJT commuters parking.

Unless one is commuting to Philadelphia from central New Jersey it makes little sense to commute from HML
when other options are available on both sides of the Delaware River south of Trenton - including driving some
distance S on I-295 to access PATCO at Woodcrest which would be the furthest. All of these other options are
cheaper then commuting from Trenton or Hamilton as it stands now...

Trenton area commuters also have the option of using the nearby West Trenton Line from either West Trenton
or Yardley Stations - and if one chooses to drive further into lower Bucks County: Woodbourne and Langhorne...
All four of these stations offer inexpensive parking (or free at WT) and a cheaper fare from Yardley on south
especially for riders traveling off peak from zone 4 as compared to zone NJ to travel towards Philadelphia.

Turning SEPTA trains at HML would be the largest problem to any added train service because it would entail
blocking a main track when it is being done. The current Trenton transfer is sufficient for local service between
NJT and SEPTA and if there can be again some kind of agreement to operate through local service to NYP and/
or perhaps NWK depending on the availability of tunnel time slots into NYP. This would be preferrable to only
operating to HML or PJC and would help far more riders in the long run.

MACTRAXX

ekt8750 wrote:

ExCon90 wrote:How could trains from the west terminate at Hamilton and return westward? I don't know of anywhere they could cross over until Monmouth Jct., and even then tie up the whole NEC making the move, plus all the unproductive time spent deadheading from Hamilton and back when they don't have enough equipment to handle the present service.

There's an interlocking in Hamilton.

Would that be HAM? It's 2 1/2 miles west of Hamilton--not really practical for a SEPTA train from Philadelphia to deadhead west on 1 from Hamilton, cross over the whole Corridor, and then deadhead east on 4 to Hamilton. It would be possible to run 1 on the eastbound trip after crossing over at HAM and turn at the westbound platform at Hamilton; maybe someone active on the Corridor can say whether an eastbound move on 4 would render it impossible to make a westward move on 4 from MIDWAY until the SEPTA train had departed Hamilton and cleared HAM. (If so, putting in a CP on Track 1 at former NASSAU--or at a currently automatic signal just east of Hamilton--would fix that, but nothing's cheap, and there would still be the problem of finding a slot for reverse running in addition to crossing over, quite apart from who would pay for the signal work.) The Pennsylvania Railroad would have figured something out, but three spoons stirring the same pot complicates things.

ExCon90 wrote:How could trains from the west terminate at Hamilton and return westward? I don't know of anywhere they could cross over until Monmouth Jct., and even then tie up the whole NEC making the move, plus all the unproductive time spent deadheading from Hamilton and back when they don't have enough equipment to handle the present service.

I never said this kind of service should be started up tomorrow without any changes.

You can and should do plenty of upgrades. Add a 5th track dedicated for SEPTA trains to terminate onto. Add the appropriate crossing points. Add parking as needed. Maybe even add a looping track so SEPTA doesnt have to cross any other track.

As MACTRAXX pointed out, Hamilton is perfectly situated for drivers coming from a large range of places. It is the optimal park and ride for those who want to reach Philadelphia.

I'd love if SEPTA ran to Newark (or NJT to Philly), but I would wager that Hamilton is the best cost-benefit from SEPTA's point of view, which is, gaining enough ridership to cover the added operating costs. Trenton captures all the transit connection ridership - Hamilton would capture all the driving ridership.

Im not familiar with the SEPTA stations, but judging from what I see from the window, none of the NEC stations between Trenton and Philly seem to offer any sort of adequate park and ride situation.

Id like to add that Princeton has a severe parking crunch, and from what I understand, very strong opposition to fixing that problem via a garage, which is why Hamilton came about. Princeton would be a lovely ending point for SEPTA, but only if that parking situation were to be fixed.

Oh, and you know what would be even cooler? SEPTA terminating in Princeton proper. After all, the SEPTA train is the same length as the dinky. Of course, that's about as likely as SEPTA starting service to Chicago.

Id also like to remind you all that Mercer County is part of DVRPC - the metropolitan planning organization that studies transportation is the Philly region. This is because Mercer County is more connected with Philly than with North Jersey or NYC. Thats also why it makes sense for SEPTA to further serve the County.