Congressional Restrictions on CRRC Transit Cars?

The first of the CRRC cars have gone into service in Boston on the MBTA Orange Line, and they are desperately needed NOW to replace an elderly fleet that is no longer reliable. By all accounts they are well-built and welcomed by riders. Personally, I am not expecting that Chinese intelligence will be interested in tracking rush hour delays out of Forest Hills or whatever. I'd say let's get real, but given the madness that infests Washington these days I no longer expect logical policy-making down there, especially as regards a manufactured feud with China.

The CRRC Orange and Red Line cars are not affected by this as they were funded 100% by the State of Massachusetts.

This is not a "manufactured feud" - the Chinese government has refused for a long time to play by the rules. Other administrations just looked the other way as US businesses offshored their manufacturing. Now the current administration is cracking down and requiring China top play nicely or else. To some extent the railcar manufacturing has been caught up in this larger dispute. China being pragmatic will eventually settle and I expect the situation to resolve itself.

I'm not worried about the MetaData on delays on the Orange Line. But as mentioned briefly regarding Stuxnet, what I am worried about is brakes being overridden remotely, causing an "accident" and tying up a transit line for weeks or longer for repairs and avoidance of similar crashes in the future

Rbts Stn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:42 pm I'm not worried about the MetaData on delays on the Orange Line. But as mentioned briefly regarding Stuxnet, what I am worried about is brakes being overridden remotely, causing an "accident" and tying up a transit line for weeks or longer for repairs and avoidance of similar crashes in the future

This. People parroting the line of "ha ha who is going to care about your stupid commute" seem to miss the bigger implications of what a home device is capable of. people have already proven that things like OnStar can be hijacked to disable vehicles. now imagine you're the manufacturer of these rail cars and the CCP boss comes to you asking for a nice little backdoor to be able to remotely disable half the US transit system. are you going to say no?

The question is why would they want to?

Why would a foreign power want to mess with another country?

I think that is a subject for a different board, but let's just say that this kind of stuff happens all over the world, every day. In my country as well as in yours, both by and against.

Rbts Stn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:23 am Why would a foreign power want to mess with another country?

I think that is a subject for a different board, but let's just say that this kind of stuff happens all over the world, every day. In my country as well as in yours, both by and against.

Leverage is leverage after all, doubly so if you have leverage over a major transportation system in multiple major cities. I expect the FBI and/or the end user to thoroughly review the hardware and software before use though, regardless of who makes it.

lensovet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:53 am

Rbts Stn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:42 pm I'm not worried about the MetaData on delays on the Orange Line. But as mentioned briefly regarding Stuxnet, what I am worried about is brakes being overridden remotely, causing an "accident" and tying up a transit line for weeks or longer for repairs and avoidance of similar crashes in the future

This. People parroting the line of "ha ha who is going to care about your stupid commute" seem to miss the bigger implications of what a home device is capable of. people have already proven that things like OnStar can be hijacked to disable vehicles. now imagine you're the manufacturer of these rail cars and the CCP boss comes to you asking for a nice little backdoor to be able to remotely disable half the US transit system. are you going to say no?

If China wanted to do that, they could simply hack existing systems rather than go through the trouble of establishing a manufacturing beach head in order to implant pre-hacked processors.

jonnhrr wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:32 amThe CRRC Orange and Red Line cars are not affected by this as they were funded 100% by the State of Massachusetts.

Not directly, but a 25% tariff on Chinese imports such as car shells & electronics would blow a small hole in the MBTA budget. Massachusetts has little leverage in Washington these days.

This is not a "manufactured feud" - the Chinese government has refused for a long time to play by the rules. Other administrations just looked the other way as US businesses offshored their manufacturing. Now the current administration is cracking down and requiring China top play nicely or else. To some extent the railcar manufacturing has been caught up in this larger dispute. China being pragmatic will eventually settle and I expect the situation to resolve itself.

Jonnhrr has gotten to the heart of the problem. Pragmatically, it would be smart for the PRC to amend their ways, play nice and lock in their gains. But that won't happen because China is not ready to stop increasing their power.

Rbts Stn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:23 am Why would a foreign power want to mess with another country?

I think that is a subject for a different board, but let's just say that this kind of stuff happens all over the world, every day. In my country as well as in yours, both by and against.

Exactly. "They're" spying on "us" and "we" are spying on them. Both "sides" have many ways they could mess each other up . I just don't think making transit run late is up there on the priority list.

David Benton wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:40 pm

Rbts Stn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:23 am Why would a foreign power want to mess with another country?

I think that is a subject for a different board, but let's just say that this kind of stuff happens all over the world, every day. In my country as well as in yours, both by and against.

Exactly. "They're" spying on "us" and "we" are spying on them. Both "sides" have many ways they could mess each other up . I just don't think making transit run late is up there on the priority list.

It's not "running late" that I am concerned about. I thought I was clear about that in this post:

Rbts Stn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:42 pm I'm not worried about the MetaData on delays on the Orange Line. But as mentioned briefly regarding Stuxnet, what I am worried about is brakes being overridden remotely, causing an "accident" and tying up a transit line for weeks or longer for repairs and avoidance of similar crashes in the future

Moderator Note: operational security (those “backdoor Stuxnet-style controls”) is one of the major stated reasons for American hostility to CRRC, and has also come up in articles about electronics corporations ZTE and Huawei. It’s a legitimate topic in this thread, but keep in mind a) this isn’t a Tom Clancy novel and b) the biggest issue is the China-America trade imbalance, not a theoretical attack on the MTA, MBTA, WMATA, or SEPTA.

CRRC could open their own metal-stamping facility to manufacture shells in USA or elsewhere. I believe Siemens has one and so does Bombardier. CRRC already has some joint ventures with Bombardier overseas i believe. Siemens would be too much of a competitor, and their US facilities are probably very busy! Who else has a domestic or North American stamping facility?

They could also use a Chinese or Taiwanese electronics manufacturer to make PCBs in US. Wasn't Foxxconn going to do something like that?

If some of the parts are sanctioned, as the manufacturer they can minimize the values of the chinese components and inflate the values of other components or assembly.

Existing customers like the MBTA are on the hook to pay any increased duties I guess, and CRRC probably has no incentive to do anything about it, and Trump has little incentive to give MA or CA or most other democratic-leaning states a break on sanctions. If it's a swing state he might waive the sanctions.

BandA wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:03 amExisting customers like the MBTA are on the hook to pay any increased duties I guess,

Very unlikely prices would change after the fact as a result of tarriffs.

New orders going forward is a different story ...

Pres. Trump postponed tariffs on some consumer goods until early December, so companies that had firm contracts in US dollars wouldn't have to pay "unexpected" tariffs on their Christmas merchandise. Now that I think about it I'm not sure CRRC would be able to pass on tariffs to their customers on existing contracts.