Concrete ties

Any 1 read the article this am in Newsday. Seems like some ties are defective, bad batch of cement and have to be replaced. RR may replace 6 miles of ties.

I didn't read the article, but am aware all the ties between JAY and HAROLD have to be replaced.

The manufacturer is providing free replacement ties, and the Taxpayers will eat the $15 million or so to install them.

The supplier simply cannot afford any additional settlement and the railroad failed to have them tested by an independent lab before accepting them as is industry standard. It is claimed that the Long Island also failed to properly surface the track regularly which has or can make an arguement for voiding any warranty.

You'll be hearing more about this in the media.

Clemuel

Gee . . . .

And concrete ties are supposed to be semi-permanent!

How about this unique idea: use creosoted, pressure-treated, wooden ties!

Maybe they'll last longer than the defective concrete.

And . . . as a bonus: add dater nails, too!

Dave Keller

Clemual, Can you explain how track resurfacing can help the life time of the concrete ties? Once there in and tamped isnt that all that needs to be done?

Regular surfacing (tamping) keeps the roadbed uniformly supportive of the track structure. Unless track is tamped every six months or so, low spots develop, resulting in unsupported portions with ties that "pump" up and down.

This pumping action weakens the tie and degrades the ride quality. It causes joint movement and often causes joint bars or their bolts to break. Stresses are transfered to the ties with a hard subsurface, greatly increasing the loads on those ties.

With concrete ties, the flexing of rails is extremely damaging, as concrete does not take well to flexing without developing fissures. These fissures permit water entry and the resultant rusting of the reinforcing steel bars within the ties. The rust expands and breaks more concrete.

Also, the pumping ties erode the bottom surface of the concrete, creating a destructive abrasive slurry that wears away at the tie.

When one concrete tie goes unsupported or becomes damaged, its loads are transfered to the neighboring ties along with the distructive flexing.

Surfacing is part of the normal maintience of main track. The manufacturers of concrete ties stress its importance to the point of denying warranty work when track is not properly surfaced. The LIRR is woefully negligent in doing this work partly because track time is so difficult to get with such a high traffic volume.

Oh yes, I did fail to state that the manufacturer is replacing the ties three-for-two in an effort to help defray costs.

Hope that answers your question, Bob...

Clem.

SUrfacing keeps the roadbed uniformly supportave of the tract structure. Unless track is tamped (surfaced) every six months or so, low stops develop, resulting in unsupported portions and ties that "pump" up and down.

This pumping action weakens the tie and degrades the ride quality. It causes joint movement and often causes joint bars or their bolts to break. Stresses are transfered to the ties with a hard subsurface, greatly amplyfing the loads on those ties.

With concrete ties, the flexing of rails in extremely damaging, as concrete does not take well to flexing without developing fissures. Also, the pumping ties erode the bottom surface of the concrete, creating a destructive abrasive slurry that wears away at the tie.

When one concrete tie goes unsupported or becomes damaged, its loads are transfered to the neighboring ties along with the distructive flexing.

Surfacing is part of the normal maintience of main track. The manufacturers of concrete ties stress its importance to the point of denying warranty work when track is not properly surfaced.

Oh yes, I did fail to state that the manufacturer is replacing the ties three-for-two in an effort to help defray costs.

Hope that answers your question, Bob...

And, eh Dave, we're both showing our age. I believe southern yellow pine would have been be much better, just as the Pennsy deemed after it tried concrete in the 1930's.

Clem.

Smart people, those Pennsy guys!

Knew how to run a railroad darn well until the mid-1960s!

Dave Keller

Clem and all: Interesting reading! It puts me in mind of the defective concrete ties that Amtrak got from Santa Fe-San-Vel back in the late 80s. Clem-again you tell it like it is- I recall myself that the CTA in Chicago had used concrete double-block ties with a steel stringer between on its Dan Ryan and Kennedy extensions around the 1968-1972 period. I recall that they were one of the first uses of them in the US. The CTA eventually had problems with them because of substandard ballast(limestone) and improper or non-existant track surfacing. I never found out but the ties themselves may have been defective. I recall the CTA replaced them all in the late 80s to the early 90s with wood and more recently composite plastic ties. My uncle was a CTA motorman between 1958 and 1986 and I spent much time there. I also now recall that the MBTA had installed the same ties on the Red Line SE extension to Quincy around the same time period-they seem to me on a recent trip to Boston to for the most part have been replaced also. I am a proponent of concrete ties but I realize they must be properly maintained for the long life they offer. MACTRAXX

Clemuel,

Yes that sure did answer my question. I didnt realise that track tamping was so important! Cant the RR tamp them at night when traffic is very low, or does it take so long that night window of time is too quick?

It's not a question of how long it takes to surface, the problem is that the surfaceing crew can not get track time because the RR in their infinite wisdom has added late night trains to bump up on time performance.

In fareness Chris, the late-night trains as well as all other off-peak trains don't count in the on-time performance numbers that are published. Generally the numbers you hear only relate to Peak trains.

Lots of reasons not to surface. Partly, the political environment does not favor work performed without immediate visible results. The Track Department, like many other groups, is no longer run by mechanics who have come thtough the ranks and much of its management has not learned the value of (or cost from not) maintaining their physical plant.

Remember, on the LIRR, a good Track Foreman earns 50% more than the head of the Track Department, so the Department is not run by those with the whiskers to know the trade.

Then there are the mechanical reasons. Track time is difficult to get from Transportation.

For a time almost every tamper the Railroad owned had been distroyed in track car accidents, caused by, eh, their employees.

The political climate is the main reason for poor maintenance. Lots of money for fancy stuff, but little for the men's overtime and hydrolic oil.

Clem

Now let me get this straight............After that humongous tie replacement project was done with all the talk of how it would improve things, now we have to go back and do a portion of it all over again, with all the track closings and effect on schedules, etc? Give me a break !!

Yup. Like a Third-World country, eh?

Clem

Despite using Concrete ties in Third world countries, they do not have the problems like our shoddy manufactured ties.
Their Concrete ties do last for years and years.
I noticed a few maffia blocks used at a MTA facility, those wre placed 5 years ago, no load other than as retaining wall, guess what their crumbling.

The mention of replacing concrete with wood and then by plastic ties makes this topic sound like it should be in the modelling section! Sometimes the prototype follows the model I guess.