Concrete ties

Does anyone know what's with Metro-North's dislike of concrete ties? It seems that they are taking out concrete ties and putting wood ones back. Meanwhile, on the LIRR they're replacing wood ties with concrete ties. What gives?

THIRD AVENUE EL wrote:Does anyone know what's with Metro-North's dislike of concrete ties? It seems that they are taking out concrete ties and putting wood ones back. Meanwhile, on the LIRR they're replacing wood ties with concrete ties. What gives?

Several northeast railroads got burned by bad batches of Rocla concrete ties, and took a bath on tie replacement when the company went bankrupt and couldn't warranty them. Amtrak took it on the chin, the MBTA took it on the chin. Through no fault of their own because it was the manufacturer's shoddy quality control, but it cost a fortune to replace them with nobody able to recoup damages from the company. In the T's case that was the second time in ~25 years that they'd been scammed by bad concrete ties requiring embarrassing whole-line replacements with weekend shutdowns. They banned them after that debacle and are 100% wood on their tracks (not sure if Amtrak still uses any concrete in Massachusetts or if all have been replaced). I don't know if MNRR had any purchases from Rocla or bad experiences with any other vendors. But they all of the commuter railroads here are justifiably gun-shy about it after the Rocla fallout. The railroads have either got to buy high-quality stuff from a very reliable manufacturer or have a lot of installations of them of varying ages and varying manufacturers so they're well-invested and well-diversified in that type of tie. NJT and LIRR have a lot more existing concrete scale motivating them to buy more concrete. It doesn't wash quite as well for MNRR, CDOT, or the MBTA to start converting when they're so overwhelmingly wood. They stock wood ties in enough quantity to get a good price point when they purchase new batches. No reason to change when scale and pricing are optimal for their needs.


Concrete ties perform more poorly in climates where the temperature hovers around the freezing point--and not too much above, not too much below--where the daily freeze/thaw cycle exerts maximum punishment. While they still generally have a much longer lifespan than wood, a concrete tie with any flaws in it will get shredded in relatively little time by freeze/thaw while wood's got more give to it in a freeze/thaw despite its lower overall lifespan. And when it's bad, bad batches like these Rocla ones...ouch. It's not that they're a bad idea for this climate, but more that a railroad in this region has to be well-invested in that type for the long haul and a lot of lines to realize the same cost/benefit ratio as other regions. In warm climates that stay mostly above-freezing during winter or very cold climates where temps stay mostly below freezing 24 hrs. a day they're a generally slam-dunk value despite the higher unit cost. They're not a bad value here...but because of freeze/thaw exploiting flaws in more ties the bang-for-buck isn't quite as good here. If you're 90 or 100% wood, there's not a compelling reason to change or to retain a very small minority of concrete.

Concrete ties only work well in areas with good water drainage. Otherwise they become known as "Mud Pumpers".

their being removed cause their failing, it has nothing to do with liking or not.

Everyone: Noting that MNCR has had recent problems with concrete tie installations I will ask:
Has MNCR used or is considering using composite plastic based railroad crossties?

I have seen them used on the LIRR interspersed with wood on the Port Jefferson Branch between
Syosset and Huntington and perhaps they are considering their use on other track routes...

I fully understand that both the LIRR and MNCR have had to replace defective concrete ties and
composite ties could be a option alongside wood ties for reasons such as life expectancy...

For more information see:
http://www.integrico.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.axionintl.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.tietek.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ptonline.com/articles/they'v ... e-railroad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MACTRAXX

yes composite ties are being tested, inluding under some crossings on Danbury Branch.

DutchRailnut wrote:yes composite ties are being tested, inluding under some crossings on Danbury Branch.

We have quite many on the Black River & Western that were installed some ten or more years ago. Seem to be holding up well. Of course, our mainline is only Class 1 track with passenger trains limited to 15 m.p.h.

Ties under crossings some times last the longest. i seen this first hand

At least in the Northeast (and it may be due to the freeze/thaw cycle mentioned earlier in this thread), "concrete ties" was an concept that may have looked great in theory, but in practice "fell apart" quite rapidly...

I travel to Korea about twice a year and ride the KTX (same equipment as France's TGV) from Seoul to Daegu. It occasionally reaches 300 kph.

KoRail uses concrete ties extensively. Climate is similar to the NEC, although July is very wet (the cold experienced during the Korean War was something of an anomaly although Siberian blasts are not uncommon). The northern part of South Korea certainly experiences similar freeze/thaw cycles.

Part of their rational may have been lack of local timber; at least until recently (the country was largely deforested due to Japanese plundering in 1910-45 and the Korean war).

Not sure what their experience has been. A few years ago I watched a single tie being replaced at one of the stations between trains.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:not sure if Amtrak still uses any concrete in Massachusetts or if all have been replaced

The Corridor, at least through Boston, is all concrete ties. They were all just replaced a couple of years ago.

I remember this debacle on the NE Corridor a few years ago. Amtrak replaced the ties on the local tracks, only to have to re-replace them the following year. However, they are still using concrete ties extensively throughout the NE Corridor.

Can we keep conversations just pertaining to Metro North ???

DutchRailnut wrote:yes composite ties are being tested, inluding under some crossings on Danbury Branch.

Presently only at Shelter Rock Road, but there is a large stack of them at a staging area set up near the Danbury Railway Museum. More definitely in the works.

I know this did not happen on MN territory, but it seems apposite in a discussion involving the suitability of concrete ties:
Concrete Ties Blamed for Train Derailment on [NJ Transit's] Montclair-Boonton Line

Plus, I just felt the need to use the word apposite.