Concrete Ties Fail on Old Colony Lines

http://www.enterprisenews.com/homepage/ ... -rail-line


Could this be possible that concrete ties had to come from Colorado, which are now defective? The transporation costs to get them here had to be as much as the product. What gives?

As Lone Star proved when it bought out San-Vel in Littleton, it doesn't matter where the ties are cast, but what the ethos is of the company that oversees the the work. Lone Star's operations seemed to give concrete ties a bad reputation, just as San-Vel's had given them a good reputation. The reality is concrete will spall after repeated freeze-thaw cycles, particularly if there's chloride-based road treatment nearby, like at grade crossings. The chloride gets plowed onto the ROW, goes into solution, is splashed around, or migrates down grade, gets absorbed by the concrete, particularly if there are surface bubbles, cracks, or other finishing deficits, and spalling gets accelerated because of the heat the chloride generates. Good surface finishing can delay spalling, but it will eventually happen.
Hey! How about using composite ties 200' either side of a grade crossing? Maybe the T could do that, instead of reinstalling, particularly at grade crossings, sure-to-fail-sooner-or-later concrete ties!

Wow What a good answer. So the ties were actually made in Littleton Ma...

jaymac wrote:As Lone Star proved when it bought out San-Vel in Littleton, it doesn't matter where the ties are cast, but what the ethos is of the company that oversees the the work. Lone Star's operations seemed to give concrete ties a bad reputation, just as San-Vel's had given them a good reputation. The reality is concrete will spall after repeated freeze-thaw cycles, particularly if there's chloride-based road treatment nearby, like at grade crossings. The chloride gets plowed onto the ROW, goes into solution, is splashed around, or migrates down grade, gets absorbed by the concrete, particularly if there are surface bubbles, cracks, or other finishing deficits, and spalling gets accelerated because of the heat the chloride generates. Good surface finishing can delay spalling, but it will eventually happen.
Hey! How about using composite ties 200' either side of a grade crossing? Maybe the T could do that, instead of reinstalling, particularly at grade crossings, sure-to-fail-sooner-or-later concrete ties!

First of all, these ties were not made in Colorado. They were made at Rocla's plant in Bear, Delaware.

Second, salt is not the problem with these ties as we have not had any broken ties in grade crossings. The actual reason for failure is still under study.

Thirdly, the decision to use concrete ties is easily questioned now. But the entire industry was moving towards concrete at the time. The big railroads are still installing concrete ties, in fact. And Amtrak has concrete ties from the late 1970's that are still performing as intended. They do solve a lot of enviornmental issues. And they give the track a more stable base as a result of their greater mass. At the time they passed all the required tests, so to sya now that the people involved should have known better is a little disingenuous.

DAW

130mm/DAW-
Not trying to start a flame-war, but I don't see any explicit or implicit criticism of individuals in the initial posts.
Lone Star had its issues and lost the business. The same may happen with the current vendor.
Rubber padding or similar no-bump applications at grade crossings provide an immediate shield for the infrastructure, but look at concrete abutments for highway overpasses: Spalling can and does happen in the presence of chloride-based road treatments.
Concrete isn't the only dense crosstie medium, hence the composite suggestion.
Whatever the difficulty is -- manufacturing process, QA, siting -- let's all learn from it.
For stability in everything,
-jaymac

First of all 130mm was clearing up some misinformation posted above! I thank him for that.

My question is... I understand the industry standard is moving towards concrete ties. But with the majority of the other lines on MBTA having wood ties, wouldn't have made sense to spec out the lines with wood ties for maintenance purposes down the road? Because I don't see a conversion to concrete ties on the entire system in the near future.

Sounds like an issue that should not be taken lightly. But I have a hard time striking a balance between being cautious about safety issues and realistic about the situation. The public is quick to jump to the tired old "typical MBTA screwing things up" mantra. This issue is not related just to the MBTA and it is unclear whether T administrators are being unreasonable. Do members here think the "safety risk" claim in the article is legitimate? It seems so, but then again if proper precautions are being taken it is not necessarily a critically dangerous situation. This needs to be fixed, especially if it is a safety risk, but I'm really afraid of it getting blown out of proportion. I do not envy T officials in these times...

Some decades ago, the National Lampoon had a cover featuring a rather worried-looking Border Collie with a revolver held to it and the headline "Buy This Magazine or We Will Shoot This Dog!" Not too many days ago, the Franklin Park Zoo director seemed to borrow from at least the spirit of that gambit when he initially suggested that at least some animals would be euthanized if a line-item veto were not overridden.
Is the T likewise going the NL route? I hope not. If we're all lucky, hyperbole will go away, and no actual passengers, crew, equipment, or credibility get harmed in the resolution of the tie problem.

sery2831 wrote:First of all 130mm was clearing up some misinformation posted above! I thank him for that.

My question is... I understand the industry standard is moving towards concrete ties. But with the majority of the other lines on MBTA having wood ties, wouldn't have made sense to spec out the lines with wood ties for maintenance purposes down the road? Because I don't see a conversion to concrete ties on the entire system in the near future.

John,

The concrete ties were spec'ed out with the understanding they would last 50 years. Obviously, that has not worked out. But due to other factors concrete is attractive on account of their ability to hold track surface better than wood, particularly at high speeds. Also, the disposal of defective wood ties is becoming more and more difficult. Once they come out of track they are considered hazardous material, and a chain of custody has to be maintained until they reach a certified disposal agent.

With this latest problem I don't see concrete being used any more, either. But wood ties don't seem to be lasting as long as they used to. I have no scientific back up for this. It's just a general feeling from looking at the ties we have been removing. My guess is that trees are now grown as crops, and they are grown as fast as possible so their growth rings are bigger making the tree not quite as strong as the old growth woods of the past.

DAW

Would they be out of the same batch as all the defective ties Amtrak has been replacing?

130MM wrote:
First of all, these ties were not made in Colorado. They were made at Rocla's plant in Bear, Delaware.

130MM-
Most wood for any purpose now is "crop" wood, grown for quick harvesting, which produces larger growth rings and a greater tendency to do all the unfortunate stuff that old-growth timber usually didn't. Hello, DIY lumber stores! A quick look at a stack of new wood ties will show a large number of anti-split plates on the ends. I don't recall seeing those much before the 1990's.
Concrete did offer a really good promise and still seems to be performing well on other continents. America might have a genius for mass production, but sometimes QA suffers. Well-treated oak ties in a well-maintained roadbed were supposed to have a life of 30 years, but the newer stocks of wood, environmental issues for preservatives, and other variables have reduced that.
Composites have some promise. With a little bit of care and good engineering on the production side, wooden ties can be safely shredded for content, reducing the environmental issues of tie dumps. Composites have enough density that they're not going to do too much migrating when properly installed. Having typed all of that, when composites start getting really popular, they'll probably start facing the QA gremlins that have made things miserable for concrete and those who believed in its promise.

jaymac wrote:As Lone Star proved when it bought out San-Vel in Littleton, it doesn't matter where the ties are cast, but what the ethos is of the company that oversees the the work. Lone Star's operations seemed to give concrete ties a bad reputation, just as San-Vel's had given them a good reputation. The reality is concrete will spall after repeated freeze-thaw cycles, particularly if there's chloride-based road treatment nearby, like at grade crossings. The chloride gets plowed onto the ROW, goes into solution, is splashed around, or migrates down grade, gets absorbed by the concrete, particularly if there are surface bubbles, cracks, or other finishing deficits, and spalling gets accelerated because of the heat the chloride generates. Good surface finishing can delay spalling, but it will eventually happen.
Hey! How about using composite ties 200' either side of a grade crossing? Maybe the T could do that, instead of reinstalling, particularly at grade crossings, sure-to-fail-sooner-or-later concrete ties!

My grandfather was president of Lonestar in Littleton from 1977 till 1990, and then the type 8's were put together in his old building.

Seems to make more sense to just stick with wooden since many concrete ties are showing not as reliable. Also, keep it consistent by having all wood since the rail is fastened to them with a tie plate and spikes, but concrete would use rail anchors.

Long term they need to figure out the problem with the concrete ties since it sounds like modern wood ties have their shortcomings too. Composite ties sound great but are probably pretty pricey compared to the other options not to mention they are probably oil price sensitive as well. Anyone know what the make up of the concrete ties is? Like are they reinforced or just solid concrete? What is the surface treatment? Moisture permeation can be a killer especially when road salt is involved.

matignon82 wrote:Long term they need to figure out the problem with the concrete ties since it sounds like modern wood ties have their shortcomings too. Composite ties sound great but are probably pretty pricey compared to the other options not to mention they are probably oil price sensitive as well. Anyone know what the make up of the concrete ties is? Like are they reinforced or just solid concrete? What is the surface treatment? Moisture permeation can be a killer especially when road salt is involved.

Concrete ties are made with a number of courses of steel reinforcing wire. They are made upside down in long troughs; about 10 to 15 ties in length when laid end to end. The reinforcing wire is strung throught the troughs, and pulled to the design tension. The shoulders are installed. Because the tie is upside down, gravity holds the shoulders in place. The concrete is poured into the troughs. After the concrete sets up, the wire is snipped between each tie. They are then stacked up for shipment.

To be honest I can't remember if there is any surface treatment, but my inclination is to say, "No."

DAW