Brightline (All Aboard Florida) Orlando - Miami FL FEC fka Virgin Rail

I'd like to revise the "peoplemover" idea a bit to make it a lot more useful at only slightly higher cost.

Assume, for a moment, that FEC is operating between Miami and MCO, the station is at the airport itself, and has now expanded west to stations at International Drive and Disney (or better yet, is about to start construction, so this can be done at the same time and avoid tearing up things that were just built). Sunrail's nearest station is 3 miles away from FEC's airport station, and nobody is really happy about it. Then, somebody comes up with a nice solution that can make everyone happy again...

West of MCO, FEC's tracks pass above Sunrail's. Sunrail itself pays to have an offline station straddling FEC's east-west tracks built above the crossing point (in other words, 4 tracks through the station... FEC's trains pass through without stopping, Sunrail's trains stop without getting in the way of FEC's trains). Ideally, the existing station near Sand Lake Road will be either adjacent to this point, or at least a mile or two away (worst-case: FEC is less than a mile south of Sunrail's existing station, and they can't move the original station because there's already new development going up around it whose owners will sue the bejesus out of Sunrail if they move the station, so they end up having to have two Sunrail stations that are less than a mile apart).

While they're at it, they do the same where FEC's tracks pass above OBT/441 (Sunrail only), at OCC/International Drive (FEC+Sunrail), and Disney (FEC+Sunrail). Maybe even another Sunrail-only station somewhere along Vineland road between Disney and International Drive.

To make both FEC and Sunrail happy, the actual trains would be owned and operated by FEC (using the same equipment they use for intercity, but possibly reconfigured with transit-style seating and standing room arrangements), and paid for by Sunrail. That way, FEC wouldn't have to worry about slow, substandard, or poorly-scheduled trains interfering with their intercity trains, and Sunrail could just pay FEC to dedicate the extra trains for Sunrail use and pay them to operate & maintain them. Someday, if FEC electrified and upgraded to higher-grade HSR, they could offer Sunrail a choice between maintaining the same cost with fewer trainsets and reduced service, or maintaining their existing service at higher cost (avoiding a budget crisis if someone like Rick Scott makes it politically impossible for Sunrail to pay more, and enabling FEC to upgrade the line and trains as it sees fit without having to worry about its big budget-constrained customer).

Basically, this would enable Sunrail to expand their service in a way that would multiply its usefulness, while spending a fraction of what it would have cost for them to lay their own tracks and do it entirely on their own. In one hit, they'd pick up most of Orlando's high-value destinations, and conveniently tie them to both the airport and Sunrail itself. Of course, it would cannibalize some degree of passenger revenue that FEC would make anyway between MCO and OCC/Disney... but FEC could just factor that into whatever it charges Sunrail, and make it revenue-neutral. It would also improve FEC's intercity service by segregating the "local" passengers from the long-distance passengers and reducing their dwell times at MCO, OCC, and Disney. I'd venture a guess that without a Sunrail service operating in parallel on the same tracks, the dwell times at MCO & Disney would probably double, or worse. That *alone* would probably make it worthwhile for FEC to pursue a deal like this with Sunrail. And of course, if FEC managed to quietly buy up a few choice properties along OBT & Vineland Road adjacent to the FEC-operated Sunrail stations before this became public knowledge (or got Orange County to do it for them, via eminent domain, to sweeten the deal), well... I suspect they'd be quite pleased.

electricron wrote:

NE2 wrote:

electricron wrote:Mu experience with electric utility owned spurs is that the maximum speeds are very low, like 10 mph or so.

The CSX employee timetable (January 1, 2005) says that "Operating Rule 96" is in effect on the Stanton Spur (the entire OUC line) but doesn't give a maximum speed (except for 5 mph over the scales and 10 mph at the wye). I'm not sure what Rule 96 is, but it doesn't mean there's a low speed limit (other spurs have it listed with 10 or 25 mph).

Whether it is 10 or 25 mph, it's not going to be the 79, 90, or 110 mph FEC would prefer for passenger trains. Therefore, FEC will have to relay the tracks in the corridor they will want to use for passenger train services.

The timetable doesn't give any maximum speed on the Stanton Spur. 10 and 25 are for other spurs, to show that Rule 96 doesn't imply a certain limit.

Private Intercity Rail Service on Track for 2014

Barney says the company is confident it will get the funding it needs to start rolling in 2 years time.

“We’re already looking at selecting the operators, picking the actual trains, you know, we’re moving very quickly," she says.

...

The train will stop in West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale, but Barney says there could be potential to link up to airports and seaports- including Port Canaveral and Orlando International Airport.

Stan Thornton, project Liaison Manager for the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority, says the airport is talking to Florida East Coast Industries about the proposed rail line.

Thornton says it could increase passenger traffic by giving people better connections to the airport.

“We have people who come down from Jacksonville, we know that from our garage traffic," says Thornton.

...

All Aboard Florida is not the only passenger rail service that could be rolling on the east coast: Amtrak is also exploring a service from Jacksonville to Miami on the same stretch of track.

Florida East Coast Industries says Amtrak and All Aboard could both use the track without any conflict.

Not much of note new here: http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/120614/story6.shtml

but I did find this interesting:

Because the system will stop in only four locations — Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando — the environmental impact is expected to be minimal, according to Ms. Barney.

Moreover, she said, the route where new tracks will be built from Cocoa to Orlando already is land "designated for public use."

Jeff Smith wrote:Not much of note new here: http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/120614/story6.shtml
but I did find this interesting:

Because the system will stop in only four locations — Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando — the environmental impact is expected to be minimal, according to Ms. Barney.

That is surprising. Will all the stops be in the Central Business District of the respective towns? Or, at the other extreme, centered on new/existing Flagler developments? Or, given the FEC's history, are CBD and Flagler synonymous?

Even so, you'd think there'd be at least one city that would merit both a "downtown" and a "beltway" stop, even as the NEC has Washington Union Station/New Carrollton at its southern end and Boston South Station/Route 128 at its northern end.

Arlington wrote:That is surprising. Will all the stops be in the Central Business District of the respective towns? Or, at the other extreme, centered on new/existing Flagler developments? Or, given the FEC's history, are CBD and Flagler synonymous?
Even so, you'd think there'd be at least one city that would merit both a "downtown" and a "beltway" stop, even as the NEC has Washington Union Station/New Carrollton at its southern end and Boston South Station/Route 128 at its northern end.

Both D.C. and Boston have local rail transit using those additional suburban stations. Orlando and Miami won't.
I can see Orlando's Airport having a second station in the future, if that airport ever builds a new south terminal incorporating a new train station. But those are big ifs. I believe Fort Lauderdale would be the additional station for the Miami metro area.

electricron wrote:Both D.C. and Boston have local rail transit using those additional suburban stations. Orlando and Miami won't.

I don't think that it is Metro or CR that makes the beltway stations work. 80%+ of the destinations you could get to by Metro from New Carrollton or CR from RTE 128 you can get to faster by taking Amtrak to the core and getting transit there. There's only a small wedge, a few stops long and directly along the rail lines that would be faster by rail, and those places aren't big O/D places.

Rather the suburban stations work for people for whom the last miles are by car. I'd think Florida would have a lot of that. Or maybe its all the way at the other extreme: since they are fairly sprawly to begin with, one station per metro area works as fine as any other.

Fast track promise from Mica: http://mica.house.gov/index.cfm?section ... temid=1199

Washington, DC – Promising to cut through the permitting red tape, U.S. Rep. John L. Mica (R-FL) is putting the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers on notice this week that he expects the agency to fast track the approval of permits for privately sponsored passenger rail service over an existing rail corridor and transportation right-of-way between Miami and Orlando.

In a letter today to Assistant Secretary of the Army (Civil Works) Jo Ellen Darcy, Mica followed up on discussions with the Corps in Washington and Jacksonville about shrinking the approval schedule and expediting the private sector rail project.

“With the right-of-way already in place there is no reason to drag this out,” Mica said. “This should not be a bureaucratic process. Imagine the government actually acting quickly to put people to work, expand private investment in a billion-dollar infrastructure project, and get cars off our congested highways.”

I hope that they can do it. I suspect this will really depend on whether they are adding new track, or replacing existing track. It's a small difference, but it makes a big difference. If you're laying track where there is currently no track - even on a multitrack ROW that formerly had a track there - it's easy to find things like unmarked utilities that ruin your schedule. Witness the Green Line Extension in Boston - they've lost 18 months due to more than 30 unmarked utilities on 5 miles of active commuter ROW.

If they're just ripping up existing track to lay new track, then that's likely less of a problem. The roadbed is already there and ready.

I find the proposal for FEC to own the track and the stations but to have another company operate the trains interesting.

If there were to be profit from operating passenger trains, why wouldn't FEC operate them itself?

SouthernRailway wrote:I find the proposal for FEC to own the track and the stations but to have another company operate the trains interesting.

If there were to be profit from operating passenger trains, why wouldn't FEC operate them itself?

Liability perhaps, ease of starting operations for another (FEC hasn't had a passenger department for 50 years, and would need to grow one mighty quickly.) Wouldn't surprise me if they even outsourced operations to Amtrak, though Herzog and Keolis are also possibilities. Either way, FEC can just sit back and collect guaranteed payments, whether or not the actual passenger operation succeeds. If the passenger operation goes bankrupt the FEC still has a freight line into the heart of Florida, and can extort some money from Amtrak for operating rights (since they'd be nearly guaranteed to take over the passenger ops.)

maybe theyre just acknowledging that they have zero experience in operating passenger trains .

David Benton wrote:maybe theyre just acknowledging that they have zero experience in operating passenger trains .

Which, from a business-strategy standpoint is a good thing to acknowledge.

The Florida service, implementing the European model of fare-deregulated, competitive, for-profit intercity rail service could even attract some new operating partners from the UK, like Stagecoach and Virgin Trains which already have affiliates in the US doing for-profit intercity operations.

Keolis is OK, but I think they're commuter-ops experience and their somewhat-coddled SNCF experience are not as relevant/exciting as perhaps attracting a British operator.

Stagecoach Group (http://www.stagecoach.com/) operates Megabus (already going against the airlines and railroads in big-city East Coast markets), and is an experienced bus-and-train operator in the UK that has no interest in bidding on Trasit/Commuter work, but a proven record of winning in intercity markets when they are in full control of vehicles, schedule and prices.

Same for Virgin Trains, of course in the UK, which also has affiliate Virgin America (serving Ft Lauderdale and Orlando) and Virgin Atlantic, flying today to Miami and Orlando). Between their Virgin Trains experience and their inter-lining experience, they're another good potential partner, already known to Floridians.

Given its low ROW costs, FEC is clearly planning on making money on both the "Railtrack" side and the operator side...and Stagecoach and Virgin are both worthy partners.

mtuandrew wrote:Wouldn't surprise me if they even outsourced operations to Amtrak, though Herzog and Keolis are also possibilities. Either way, FEC can just sit back and collect guaranteed payments, whether or not the actual passenger operation succeeds.

Mr. Stephens, such a scenario does not exactly suggest a concern operating passenger trains for their own account.

But nevertheless, I continue to hold that this is all a ploy to make it more publicly palatable to sell the FEC to the State. While the following reiterates many a thought I have already expressed at this topic, quite simply, volks, there will never be a passenger train operating over the Florida East Coast Ry FOR THEIR OWN ACCOUNT. I give Amtrak operation over the FEC at best a 50-50. So long as Martin County FL remains "train hating", Fox News watching, country, I do not foresee any northward expansion of Tri-Rail to locations such as Stuart (FEC) or Northwestward to, say, Indiantown (CSX) as Florida law requires any county desiring rail service to impose a tax (ad valorem or excise) dedicated to that rail service's funding.

A locally funded intercity Corridor operation including the FEC?. Not placing my bets on that one.

Because the "private equity" outfit that bought up FEC cannot make a buck with the present capitalization (about 90% debt), they are looking for a buyer - and the buyer they have in mind is the State. Neither of its JAX interchanges is interested in acquiring it owing to the debt structure - and the shippers, be they in place or "in waiting" post-PANAMAX, do not want any merger either, for they want the South Florida maritime ports to be "open", i.e. there is a competitive rail service, albeit in this case it is 350 miles away in Jax.

This "faux passenger rail initiative" is simply a ploy to make any proposed sale to the State, which has a "whale of an interest" in ensuring a viable rail connection open to all, more palatable to the voters. Should such a sale be consummated, the passenger initiative will sort of go the way of Sunset East.

Finally, a word on FEC; during 2010, they made about $25M on railroad operations, but owing to the leveraged buyout, they are burdened with about $35M in debt service costs (2011 results have not been publicly disclosed). So long as that debt structure remains in place, they "ain't a gonna make it', and a bankruptcy petition is simply inevitable and worse to "massa", a bankruptcy court might attach non rail assets to satisfy railroad creditors (I'm not enough of a lawyer to pass an opinion on whether or not such could come about).

It's a ploy; enjoy the fun and dreaming while it lasts.

FEC is talking to the Orlando Airport about a terminal location. http://www2.tbo.com/news/metro/2012/jun ... ar-418606/ That doesn't really benefit Virgin if they are already flying to Orlando, Miami and Ft. Lauderdale.