Branch closures and trivia

When ever I hear you guys kick around media and general discusion questions pertaining to branh closures I always have the same question come up. The general concession seems to be for closing Greenpoint, Oyster Bay, and West Hempstead branches, in that order. If I look at the schedules however, I see that Oyster Bay runs 23 trains a weekday, and West Hempstead runs 13. That seems a lot healthier than Long beach (11) and Far Rockaway (12). I hadn't been to Long Beach since 1967, and I was shocked when I saw what kind of shape it was in watching the movie "A City too Far" (Da on the title, it was the recent Robert De Niro flick), why would they want to run trains to an "A" bomb sight?
My bonus questions is, what is the 72 in "P-72" for? Feet?

Thanks, Mac

Well, from pictures I've seen, it seems the Long Beach line gets fairly heavy ridership, but it could all be deception.

Also, it's the GreenPORT, not Greenpoint, line. Those are 2 different ends of Long Island there, lol.

Hello all,

Let me float another idea concerning the MTA’s closing of branches, specifically the Mainline from Ronkonkoma to Greenport. My brain spasm came about after hearing a morning radio statement by NYS Assemblyman Fred Thiele on WLNG-FM a few weeks ago. He has introduced into Legislative Committee a bill that would investigate/create a Transit Authority in Suffolk County to operate the rail service between KO and Greenport. Tell me if this makes sense to you.

The MTA and the New York State Legislature know that population, (and ridership), is increasing along the North Shore through Riverhead and the North Fork. They know there has been a call and speculation for a transportation hub to be built at the Calverton Property in Riverhead Township. They hear people and local government calling for more frequent train service on the East End. They know all the crossing gate switches are too close to the grade crossings and need to be moved to increase the legal speed limit for trains on the Mainline – and increased ridership will demand faster trains, (like their South Shore Brethren). And finally, adding more trains to the LIRR Mainline timetable means more man/woman power and more wear and tear on the limited equipment available.

What do these five points all have in common? They all cost a bundle of money – well into the future.

A Transit Authority in Suffolk County, set up to oversee “The Mainline East of Ronkonkoma”, might be a long-term financially prudent answer to these “Big Five.” The “County” could privatize the maintenance and operation of the Mainline by hiring independent contractors. (Much like they do with the Suffolk County Transit Buses.) I doubt the new “contractors” would be Unionized - or if so would have weaker contracts in place - wages for engineers, conductors and MOW workers might be lower than LIRR wages, the MTA and the State saves! I bet there would be Federal ISTEA incentives to buy new RDC type railcars, hi-rail trucks for MOW, cranes, infrastructure, buildings, crossing switch moves, etc. A new Transit Authority in Suffolk County might be favored in the Federal ISTEA bidding over the old MTA. At the very least, a new Transit Authority, starting out with little or no debt and a large and growing-larger tax base, might get a very favorable bond rating for financing Mainline needs. The new Authority can negotiate with the NYA and allow continued freight service to the North Fork. The MTA benefits by getting Mainline power and cars off the East End and back into its equipment pool. The Unionized men and women covering runs out to Greenport are now distributed into the larger system, the MTA can ease up on hiring for a few months – maybe.

The unique character of “The Mainline East of Ronkonkoma” is once again in the spotlight. It is Manual Block Territory, no ATC, NORAC might rule in the future; the population base is growing and making demands; it’s a dead-end branch that might do nothing in the next 15 – 20 years or it might explode with ridership, what a gamble, what a liability for an already strapped MTA. If Suffolk County owns and operates the Mainline, might they make it easier for RMLI #39 to run between Riverhead and Greenport? Do you too, gentle reader, think this might be a Grand Experiment that has already been decided in Albany’s hallowed halls? I think this is going to be something interesting to watch.

de Don, n2qhvRMLI

thrdkilr wrote:When ever I hear you guys kick around media and general discusion questions pertaining to branh closures I always have the same question come up. The general concession seems to be for closing Greenpoint, Oyster Bay, and West Hempstead branches, in that order. If I look at the schedules however, I see that Oyster Bay runs 23 trains a weekday, and West Hempstead runs 13. That seems a lot healthier than Long beach (11) and Far Rockaway (12). I hadn't been to Long Beach since 1967, and I was shocked when I saw what kind of shape it was in watching the movie "A City too Far" (Da on the title, it was the recent Robert De Niro flick), why would they want to run trains to an "A" bomb sight?
My bonus questions is, what is the 72 in "P-72" for? Feet?

Thanks, Mac

I have no idea what schedules you are looking at. Long Beach has 60 trains a day during the week and 48 a day on the weekends (50 during the summer) Far Rockway has 60 daily trains during the week and 42 on the weekends.
Oyster Bay has 34 weekday and 22 weekend trains.
The movie you are refering to is "City by the Sea." it was based losely on true events that did take place on Long Beach, however the movie was not filmed here. It was filmed in the Rockaways. Even at its lowpoint in the 70's Long Beach never looked like what was protrayed in the movie. Which it why the movie caused an uproar in Long Beach. Except for a small area near the train station LB is very nice, and even has quite a few Million dollar homes. Great beaches great places to eat, great bars. You should check it out someday.

The idea of a Suffolk transit authority is intreaguing, but not likely. Splitting up the MTA to create a TA for one lightly used branch is not the direction the state is moving. Authorities are state agencies even though they may have names like "suffolk" in them. Also, the feds would likely give more, not less, funds to the big urban agency. Politically, Albany would not want to tick off big unions without some kind of trade off.

There is no plan or push that I have heard of for a Greenport to KO rail service. There should be because most of the remaining growth on LI will be near there. The county or east end towns should have some kind of objectives: level of service, traffic reduction, air pollution, etc. Rail seems like a significant part of solving traffic congestion on both forks, but few people realize it.

The LIRR should be adding service to east end, not reducing it. I would suggest more and higher speed vacation service; hourly off peak service; about 20minute headways during rush hour. Using the big DE's and C3's seems incredibly inefficient for off peak. Given the present and future population densities, RDC's seem to be the way to go. The LIRR shop folks probably would not be happy with 2 very different sets of parts, manuals, training, etc. To be at least somewhat compatable with existing equipment, perhaps MP15's and MN BBD cars would be sensible. I know this isn't great, but it seems to me less expensive than more DE's.

Don't be hating Nimby! Sorry about Greenport. Your right Bluebelly, I really screwed up reading the MTA schedules, seems I was only reading the first page (morning). When I include all the trains, my theory makes no sense. I'll try and be more careful in the future.
What about the 72, in P-72?

Mac

thrdkilr:

I wasn't trying to criticize you in any way. I was just saying you made a little mistake. Sorry you took it the way you did.

The "P" stands for passenger and the "72" refers to the interior (passenger area) of the car, NOT the overall length. It's an old Pennsy way of identifying passenger cars.
Pennsy passenger car designation can drive you nuts figuring them out sometimes. MP, MPBM, BM, D, etc..any one know what those designations are for (the LI did use them at one time).

Pennsy passenger car designation can drive you nuts figuring them out sometimes. MP, MPBM, BM, D, etc..any one know what those designations are for (the LI did use them at one time).

Its Easy as pie. M = motorized, P = passanger, B = baggage, M = mail, BM. 54-72 =length inside pax compartment, A-b-c-d is modification.

MPB54e would be a Motiorized Passanger Baggage car, (combine) 54 feet interior, with "5th" modification to the series. A "B60B" would be a baggage car, 60 feet interior space and a design modification or improvement. A BM60" would be a mail car as derived from the B60 series bags.
Then of course, there are the frieght car designations as well.

Wow, it actually makes sense. Thanks for the info.

The whole closure thing was a ploy to provoke the public into prodding politicians into pouring more funding into the MTA. It's part of the game where someone will pay more $$, whether in commutation, wacky phone charges, commuter tax or whatever without the MTA or politicians being held accountable.

If a Suffolk County official actually brought this up, then it may mean several things - he's using the MTA's tricks against them, a left-handed attempt at stating one way or another we're getting our rail service and better the cash runs through our hands than theirs. It may be a ill-informed but well-meaning attempt to actually investigate doing this via the county, and then look for a connection to the consultant hired at an extravagant fee to check it out. Or, more likely it's publicity seeking to make him look good, check to see if he's up for election or getting investigated by Spota for corruption.

Whatever - Speaking of abandoned branches, I dragged my out of shape carcass on the bike path that extends from Flushing Meadows into Cunningham Park and then into Alley Park. All part of the railroad that ran from Shea down to Floral Park, and highly recommended. One bridge by Union Parkway just before Alley Park looked like a definite former PRR/LIRR bridge, but what surprised me was it was wide enough for double track and the date on the abutment was 1924. Can anyone tell me if that was double track Shea to Creedmore and was it still in service around the '20s? That trips me out that they went to the trouble and expense to fix up that row only to abandon it not much later...

Thanks in advance!

That line you rode was the abandonned Central Railroad of Long Island, which ran from nowadays Shea Stadium station to a station just south of the current Babylon one.

I'm pretty sure the section between Shea and Creedmore was abandonned long before the 1900's. So...unless that bridge is part of the Creedmore spur, which I believed remained open much longer than the rest of the CRR, I don't think it's an original RR bridge.

The portion of the Central RR of LI from Flushing to Creedmoor was abandoned in the early 1880's, but I think I read somewhere (Seyfried?) that the tracks were still in place until about WWI.

I think the bridge you saw, as well as the other bridges in the area around 73rd. Ave., Francis Lewis Blvd, Bell Blvd., etc. were not railroad bridges but are remnants of the Long Island (Vanderbilt) Motor Parkway.

http://www.nycroads.com/history/motor/

Thanks gentlemen, especially Robertwa for the link. I didn't realize the VMP came that far west and am glad to see that it still exists there as a bikeway...

Actually, I believe that "City by the Sea" was filmed somewhere on the Jersey Shore, possibly Asbury Park.
At one or two points in the movie you hear a train whistle - that is probably one of the NJT Comets, it does not soound anything like the M-1 or M-3/ And in one scene you see a RR Xing - which as I recall - there are no Xings in Long Beach NY