• Brainstorming a rational LD route system

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Backshophoss
 
A return of the Floridian may not be possible,Blame CSX for that,as the traditional routing is long gone,with a paper barrier forced on a shortline to boot.
option would be a return of NOL -Jax segment of the Sunset Ltd now that a shortline runs the former CSX Pensacola- Jax segment (unless the Hedge fund goons put up another paper barrier on that line)
  by STrRedWolf
 
Backshophoss wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:47 pm A return of the Floridian may not be possible,Blame CSX for that,as the traditional routing is long gone,with a paper barrier forced on a shortline to boot.
option would be a return of NOL -Jax segment of the Sunset Ltd now that a shortline runs the former CSX Pensacola- Jax segment (unless the Hedge fund goons put up another paper barrier on that line)
I would split that segment out into it's own train. Let NOL-Jax be the Floridian, and maybe stretch it down to Miami.
  by R&DB
 
Backshophoss
Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:47 pm
Not sure what you are saying here. Most (if not all) of this route exist, at least on Open Railway Map. You just skip Bloomington and go through Indy instead. And what is the paper issue? I would personally like to reroute through Chattanooga, Atlanta and Macon instead of Birmingham, but the southern routing is faster.
  by Backshophoss
 
That shortline in Bloomington has the "Paper Barrier",forced on them by CSX, or they would lose Bridge traffic from CSX
  by GWoodle
 
Backshophoss wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:47 pm A return of the Floridian may not be possible,Blame CSX for that,as the traditional routing is long gone,with a paper barrier forced on a shortline to boot.
option would be a return of NOL -Jax segment of the Sunset Ltd now that a shortline runs the former CSX Pensacola- Jax segment (unless the Hedge fund goons put up another paper barrier on that line)
If you mean the old Monon between Chicago & Louisville that is long gone. Also gone is a PRR route from Logansport into Indy or an old NYC route from Kankakee into Indy. Perhaps there is old ROW for a new Chicago-Indy route to be built to allow Hoosier State, Cardinal between the 2 points. A third L&N route could be the old C&EI route to Evansville then on to Nashville. South of Nashville not sure of a route Atlanta to Jacksonville with a split for Miami trains from Orlando & or Tampa. A new NoL-Jacksonville train could be a new Gulf Wind.

AS it is both Louisville & Nashville are 2 cities no longer served by Amtrak. That track is there but not up to passenger train speeds.
  by markhb
 
Looking at the various state rail maps plus the CSX map, my idea of a new Floridian would be to follow the Hoosier State route CHI-IND, pull through the station and follow the LIRC to Louisville, then switch back to CSX to go Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Jacksonville-(better places in Florida than Jacksonville). Another option would be to stay on CSX the whole way and go Indianapolis -Terre Haute - Evansville - Nashville, but I think that would require a reversal of direction at IND. Track upgrades might be needed, and I'm aware that slots on the Chattanooga pass are precious, but is there anything in the way of missing track on either of those routes that would cause a problem?
  by Ridgefielder
 
markhb wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:58 pm Looking at the various state rail maps plus the CSX map, my idea of a new Floridian would be to follow the Hoosier State route CHI-IND, pull through the station and follow the LIRC to Louisville, then switch back to CSX to go Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Jacksonville-(better places in Florida than Jacksonville). Another option would be to stay on CSX the whole way and go Indianapolis -Terre Haute - Evansville - Nashville, but I think that would require a reversal of direction at IND. Track upgrades might be needed, and I'm aware that slots on the Chattanooga pass are precious, but is there anything in the way of missing track on either of those routes that would cause a problem?
You'd miss Nashville, but its also possible to run via the Cardinal route to Cincinnati, then head south on Norfolk Southern through Lexington and Chattanooga to Atlanta. After Atlanta you'd head to Macon, then either straight on through to Jacksonville via Valdosta, or over to the coast at Savannah (via either the Georgia Central or NS) and a linkup with the current NY-FL routes.

And before I get flamed out-- yes, I know, the Rathole is a busy line, NS would have kittens (although they don't actually own the line between Cincy and Chattanooga), the passenger facilities in Atlanta are in the wrong place, and the track setup in Macon is probably all wrong. But it would have the additional benefit of linking two of the largest metro areas in the South-- Jacksonville and Atlanta.
  by Alex M
 
I am curious as to what do you mean by a paper barrier? With regards to the Pensacola to Jacksonville segment, was not the Sunset East service suspended rather than discontinued, even though it is a short line railroad operation?
  by ctclark1
 
A "paper barrier" is, in essence, a part of the switching contract between railroads that on paper prevents them from carrying out certain operations, but would otherwise physically be possible from the existing infrastructure.
An example of this was when Conrail forbade the Livonia, Avon, & Lakeville from directly switching with Rochester & Southern using the Genesee Junction yard south of Rochester NY, despite all three railroads having physical access to the yard. CSX was prevented by the Surface Transportation Board from keeping this provision in place during the Conrail breakup.
  by dgvrengineer
 
I don't think a paper barrier would prevent Amtrak from using a connection that is forbidden for freight service. Amtrak uses it's own crews and would negotiate its route with each RR.
  by GWoodle
 
markhb wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:58 pm Looking at the various state rail maps plus the CSX map, my idea of a new Floridian would be to follow the Hoosier State route CHI-IND, pull through the station and follow the LIRC to Louisville, then switch back to CSX to go Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Jacksonville-(better places in Florida than Jacksonville). Another option would be to stay on CSX the whole way and go Indianapolis -Terre Haute - Evansville - Nashville, but I think that would require a reversal of direction at IND. Track upgrades might be needed, and I'm aware that slots on the Chattanooga pass are precious, but is there anything in the way of missing track on either of those routes that would cause a problem?
The LIRC would repeat the route of the Ky Cardinal that could run on to Nashville. CSX running some freight up to Seymour to avoid LaGrange Ky on it's way to Cincinnati. Would be nice to do new Georgian from Chicago Indy Louisville Nashville Atlanta. Maybe do Humming Bird further south To Birmingham, Montgomery, to Mobile & New Orleans. As fast as the state is growing need something in the mid-south.
  by Backshophoss
 
The Ex PRR from Jeffersonville IN into Louisville Ky has that anti-Amtrak paper barrier imposed by CSX,they would lose all CSX bridge traffic ,to never allow a Kentucky Cardinal service again.
  by Arborwayfan
 
Why did/does CSX insist on that paper barrier? If the short line allowed Amtrak on its tracks, would CSX somehow be forced to allow Amtrak onto its connecting lines?
  by Backshophoss
 
This was done to kill any return of Amtrak service to Louisville,was talk of a return of the Kentucky Cardinal, by extension the Floridian
  by Arborwayfan
 
Backshophoss, is CSX under obligation to let the Floridian return if Amtrak wants to run it and the barrier weren't there? I thought Congress changed that part of the Amtrak law so that only routes that currently had Amtrak trains as of ten or fifteen years ago (long after the Floridian ended) had to take Amtrak trains back. I'm just trying to understand why CSX thought they needed the paper barrier instead of just saying no themselves.

Main post:
I think 2-a-day trains would make sense on many LD routes -- probably not the ones in the Rockies, the deserts, and other really empty places with hardly any stops -- for the reasons stated by others here AND to give all stations service outside the wee hours of the morning. A Chicago-Denver-Chicago train, carrying coaches with long distance seating and some kind of palatable food service would (a) provide real ie pleasant service to Nebraska and (b) make trips between the Denver area on the west and Omaha & western Iowa on the east possible as daytime trips, which a lot of people would find more attractive that either sitting up all night or forking out big bucks for sleeper. Two trains a day would give pax at every station greater flexibility and make the train more attractive; they could probably increase demand enough to fill both trains and maybe even enough to raise fares a little. With no sleeping car attendants to pay and no free meals, the non-overnight train might have an better farebox ratio than the night train.

I'd also look at adding daytime-evening service between Chicago and Cleveland, either by (a) adding a daytime LD such as I describe above between Chicago and Cleveland, maybe continuing on to Pittsburgh or Buffalo and maybe offering a guaranteed connection to a train from Cleveland to whichever of those two last cities it didn't continue on to, (b) adding a NYP-Philly-Pittsburgh-Cleveland-Chicago train that crossed Penna in the wee hours of the night, (c) reversing the timing of the LSL to make it cover the western half of its route in the day time, on the logic that the Empire service already serves with eastern half of the route in the day time, or (d) adding an additional overnight train to the LSL or Capitol Ltd route that would cover the western half of its route in day time.

I would argue that a 1000-mile, 17.5-hour train -- as big a distance as the LSL or the Capital Ltd covers -- would be a Long-Distance train even though it wouldn't be an overnight train; since Col. Perkowski asked us to brainstorm a rational Long Distance route system, I think it's reasonable to define Long Distance as literally covering a long distance, not as "overnight". I'd say a rational route system would include running the kinds of trains and schedules that non railfans would ride, and leveraging the ability of the train to deliver people to small cities without a lot of air service to capture a lot of 4-8-hour trips along the LD routes. Designing LD trains mostly around end-to-end passengers doesn't make sense to me, because most pax don't ride end to end.