Bombardier M7 Dual/mode AC/DC aka M8 (proposal)

Bombardier has proposed a M7 based dual mode M8 for New haven line.
4 scenario's are offered
1] Standard Married pair 4 axles on 4 trucks powered (like RDC) both cars have two HVAC units, pantograph on B car (dis-advantage only half axles have dynamic brake)

2] Motor/ driving trailer 4 axles powered on motor car only two HVAC units on motorcar, and one split system HVAC on trailer, with high voltage equipment and Pantograph on T car. (dis advantage no dynamic brake on trailer)

3] triplet A and B car motorized, both have 2 HVAC systems, middle car unpowered with High voltage equipment,pantograph etc ( dis-advantage centercar has no dynamic brake and only one split system HVAC))

4 full funtion married pair with all functions including 2 HVAC units per car .
all axle's driven on bothy cars.

in all 4 scenario's the cars can operate on third rail / 12.5 kv / 25kv but nothing is noted about ACCES microcab cab signaling, a requirement needed to run east of New Haven possible ACCES upgrade in future on New Haven line west to CP216)

Sounds cool. If this goes through and someone is smart enough to notice that the ACCES system needs to be included if their goal is east of New Haven service, does this mean that a possible elimination of the Shore Line East and it's replacement with regular Metro-North service is in our future?

#4 Is pretty much not practical because of weight. #3 or #2 would probbably be what's chosen (assuming MN can break from the stupid mindset of every single car MUST HAVE POWERED AXLES OR ELSE!!!). They make better sense (better weight distribution, more reliable on account of fewer parts). Triplets would have more powered axles than pairs (2/3rds Vs 1/2), thus would give better traction, better acceleration, and better slippery rail performance. #1 is a silly idea the engineers threw in because they thought it'd be cute to see if anyone's stupid enough to buy it.

From the info posted, if I had to rank them, it's be 3, 2, 4, 1. #3 is basically an adapted M-7 (if they retain the supurb Mitsubishi propulsion system with slight mods - noteably a slight uprate, another 50hp/axle), with a center car with the transformer guts. It could theoretically be possible, if the center car had some major failure, to make the design so it could be cut in the shop, leaving the A/B cars as a pseudo M-7 set. #2 is close, but has only 50% powered axles, vs 66% on #3. With AC traction this is sufficient, provided they can get good adhesion, which shouldn't be an issue. #4 is stupid - why throw all the junk around between cars when you can concentrate the AC section in one, the DC in the other? #1 won't result in better performance, and probbably be WORSE than #2 or #3, be very complex, and thus ultimately unreliable. This assumes 125,000/car for a triplex (achiveable, easily) #3, and 150,000/car for a #4 pair (realistic). You'd also have fewer cabs with #3 (equals more seats, fewer things to maintain), and a minumum 3 car set, though really, this isn't a horrid thing. The real nice part is fewer cabs, fewer pans, fewer motors. less stuff to break, less to maintain, but still distributed power. The big disadvantage is blow up the transformer, or pan, and you're down three cars in AC territory, not two.

the issue is not having all powered axles vs not having all dynamic brake axles?
The unpowered trailer or centercar would require each train to go over a pit to fix any brake wear, no dynamic means exsessive brakeshoe wear and guaranteed trip into shop every 12 or so days.
and this is what we try to avoid occupying shop space while important issues need to be adresses in shop.

JayMan wrote:Sounds cool. If this goes through and someone is smart enough to notice that the ACCES system needs to be included if their goal is east of New Haven service, does this mean that a possible elimination of the Shore Line East and it's replacement with regular Metro-North service is in our future?

Jayman, I think you're forgetting that this would probabbly cause a lot of inter-agency wrangles. Don't forget that between ConnDOT and Amtrak, they've been wasting copius amounts of both diesel and electricity running diesel engines on a completely electrified ROW. You've got the wires juiced 24/7 anyway, what's the sense in using diesel on top of that? They've been doing that for something like 5 years now, don't expect them to get it sorted any time soon.

Well, we'll see. I've though it was pretty dumb to run diesels in the Shore Line territory when the line is electrified. But, then I thought all the alternatives call for $$$, and well, progress, something Connecticut isn't famous for.

But if they're going to spend the dough for the M-8's anyway and they have the capacity to run east of New Haven wouldn't it actually be a waste of dollars to keep the Shore Line East the way it is now?

The long range plan for shoreline East would be to use Diesels and coaches on Springfiels line and EMU's on Shoreline to Old Saybrook.
not all high level platforms are built. as far as interagency wiggeling, Amtrak is only ccontract operator, as of next month or so Metro North is taking over operations of all Shoreline East facilities in New Haven and will be maintaining the Diesel fleet.
Operations of trains will still remain with Amtrak, due to MNCR crews not having rights on shoreline or qualifications and are not Norac qualified.

Are we to assume from this posting that Amtrak crews will be using MN equipment east of New Haven to Old Saybrook?

I cAn see it now holiday rush waiting for the train to washinton at penn and a metro north m-8 train comes in LOL but that would be cool to have a dual mode M-7

I'd imagine the cab signal system could be upgraded to Amtrak's ACSES on any new cars bought. The real issue is if they'll have tap changers to allow switching to 25kv 'on the fly', though these days, that's nothing to add (I would not be surprised at all if the M-2s had the ability to be upgraded to multi system AC operation).

Diesels under the wires? This is the US. Stupidity is par for the course

no the highest voltage on M2 transformers is 13 000 there are no 25kv windings.

> Operations of trains will still remain with Amtrak, due to MNCR crews
> not having rights on shoreline or qualifications and are not Norac qualified.

This is what I mean by inter-agency wrangling. If Metro-North took over SLE and tried to run through trains from New London to GCT, the operation would be a joint one with ConnDOT/MTA, AND extensive involvement by Amtrak, including having crew changes on the expanded Metro North service to New London. Don't think that this would be a smooth, well orchestrated set-your-watch-by-it process, ditto for the bureaucracy behind it.

Sean W. wrote:> Operations of trains will still remain with Amtrak, due to MNCR crews
> not having rights on shoreline or qualifications and are not Norac qualified.

This is what I mean by inter-agency wrangling. If Metro-North took over SLE and tried to run through trains from New London to GCT, the operation would be a joint one with ConnDOT/MTA, AND extensive involvement by Amtrak, including having crew changes on the expanded Metro North service to New London. Don't think that this would be a smooth, well orchestrated set-your-watch-by-it process, ditto for the bureaucracy behind it.

Hopefully by the time this comes to fruition these issues will be smoothed out.

The Primary winding of M2, M4 & M6's can be used on 13,000 volts or 25,000 volts. Currently the primary winding on the main transformer is wired in Parallel for 13,000 volts but can be wired in series for 25,000 volts. GE did this in case catenary voltage was raised in the future to 25,000 volts.

So New Haven Line cars can run on either 13,000 volts or 25,000 volts but not both at the same time.

only the M4 and M6 cars have that option.
the M2 was built for 11500 volt only and at 60 Hz can take 12 500 as the core saturate sooner with higher frequency.