Railroad Forums 

  • Bill filed to remove commuter rail operations from MBTA

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

 #1619905  by RandallW
 
When they choose to so, governments can be very good at contract oversight and at recognizing patterns of fraud, waste, and abuse and other forms of corruption.

Conversely governments have been famous for creating or running organizations with lots of fraud, waste, and abuse and corruption (in theory contracting out work to private entities reduces this when the work has been openly competitively bid).
 #1619912  by eolesen
 

CRail wrote:The obvious point is that contracting out the service, regardless of how the contract is structured, is failing the Commonwealth. It made sense when we were paying the already operating railroad companies to not abandon their own service (with all their own assets, by the way), but now that the originals are gone it just employs a middleman through which funding can be easily misappropriated, as we see in the quoted article.
Yes, because we all know that Government that answers to nobody is so much better at spending money than a private company who is required to meet accounting standards.

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 #1619919  by Arborwayfan
 
Governments answer to the voters--in theory, to almost everyone. Corporations answer to their investors--many of whom don't even live in the area the corporations operate in. In government projects, corruption is sometimes a problem; in private projects, some things that would be illegal corruption in government projects are legal, like hiring the CEO's brother or hiring a more expensive contractor who you think will do a better job. Private companies have to make a profit. Public agencies face political pressure to treat employees well, which can raise costs. Private companies with shortish-term contracts have little incentive to plan for the far future; government agencies might, if constituents pressure them to.

It matters how the contracts are written. It matters how the subsidies are arranged. It matters how oversight is done.
I don't know if it actually matters whether the T or a contractor operates the CR service.

I think it does matter how well the CR is coordinated with rapid transit, T buses, RTA buses, Amtrak, and whatever other services might exist. The Needham Line and the Fairmount line kind of fill gaps in the rapid-transit network. Reading trains and Lynn trains serve stops that in some plans would have become rapid-transit stops. CR is kind of an express service for the orange line and for the Braintree line of the Red Line, although few people use it for trips that short and we wouldn't want the trains to fill up with short-trip riders instead of zone 5 people. Lots of CR riders change to the subway for their last mile on the way in; some use buses to get to the CR station and more could if there were better bus service to CR stations in places like Lowell, Worcester, etc. Whoever runs the systems, they should work together better than they do now.
 #1620059  by BandA
 
How is Keolis “failing the commonwealth”. Corollary: is hiring Amtrak to operate state sponsored service instead of Keolis failing the commonwealth? Why is CTDOTs vendor allowed to run trains to Springfield?Are government direct operators such as Metro-North, LIRR, SEPTA or MARC better or worse at operating Commuter Rail? I also find it fascinating that the RTAs are *required* to contract out all of their services (which are just buses except for the Cape Flyer).
 #1620064  by CRail
 
BandA wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:19 pmHow is Keolis “failing the commonwealth”.
Apparently, you're not paying attention.
Corollary: is hiring Amtrak to operate state sponsored service instead of Keolis failing the commonwealth? Why is CTDOTs vendor allowed to run trains to Springfield?
Short answer, not really but probably kind of. Re: ConnDOT, that's their prerogative, but I'm hearing from industry professionals that that arrangement isn't working out too well either.
Are government direct operators such as Metro-North, LIRR, SEPTA or MARC better or worse at operating Commuter Rail?
Metro North, LIRR, and Metra are leagues ahead of anything Massachusetts has seen since the heritage roads were in charge. I know little about SEPTA and MARC's performances.
I also find it fascinating that the RTAs are *required* to contract out all of their services.
Source?
 #1620082  by eolesen
 
Arguably, Metra works well because the highest volume and highest revenue lines are contracted out to the UP and BNSF.

Now that the UP is handing operations over to Metra, it will be interesting to see if that was a wise decision or not.

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 #1620171  by CRail
 
I don't have a problem with actual railroad companies continuing to operate service, and would agree that it's likely superior to government agency control. It made sense to pay the B&M, NH, and PC to run their trains. It's when you have these multifunctional conglomerates with no institutional knowledge that the government is paying for nothing but cost cutting "innovation" that it doesn't benefit from anyways. It should have transferred to the T when the B&M lost it, though Amtrak was at least already a railroad. MBCR and Keolis Commuter Services are paper "railroads" with no rail assets or equipment.
 #1620179  by Arborwayfan
 
The RTAs are required to contract out all service under Mass General Laws 161B. I spent a summer as an intern for the person in the EOTC who was oversaw the RTAs back in the 1990s, and that was one of the first things I learned. Back then there was one exception, the Greenfield Montague Transportation Area, which was allowed to own and operate its own buses under MGL 161A, maybe because it was created before the RTA statute; IIRC in the 90s the Franklin RTA contracted with the GMTA to run its buses. However, according to the FRTA website FRTA now contracts with a private company AND in 2006 took over operating buses and on-demand services in Greenfield and Montague from the GMTA. http://frta.org/the-jwo-transit-center/history/
 #1620182  by eolesen
 

CRail wrote: It's when you have these multifunctional conglomerates with no institutional knowledge that the government is paying for nothing but cost cutting "innovation" that it doesn't benefit from anyways. It should have transferred to the T when the B&M lost it, though Amtrak was at least already a railroad. MBCR and Keolis Commuter Services are paper "railroads" with no rail assets or equipment.
SNCF is a paper railroad with no assets or institutional knowledge?......

They're the majority owner of Keolis.

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 #1620183  by chrisf
 
eolesen wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:43 pm
SNCF is a paper railroad with no assets or institutional knowledge?......

They're the majority owner of Keolis.
Keolis Commuter Services is specifically the corporation that was formed to operate the MBTA commuter rail system. They do not own the equipment they operate, nor the property on which they operate.
 #1620186  by eolesen
 
And yet they've got 60,000+ employees worldwide...

Keolis knows transit systems. Its literally their core business. Rail, metro, bus... they cover it all. But do keep believing they're a paper company.

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 #1620197  by Red Wing
 
Having 60,000+ employees based mostly in European centric locations does not mean that they can run a railroad well in the US that runs railroads completely differently. Different entities under the same umbrella company doesn't necessarily mean it's as good as the main company or other entities under the same company. And yes in the US they are a paper company with no assets so I will still believe. Also you lose alot of institutional knowledge every time a new company takes over the operations so your basically starting from scratch.
 #1620221  by eolesen
 
There's also a lot a lot of institutional knowledge that simply changes companies along with the contract, especially in the lower and middle levels where it matters the most.

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 #1620230  by BandA
 
CRail wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:13 am
BandA wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:19 pmHow is Keolis “failing the commonwealth”.
Apparently, you're not paying attention.
Your answer is non-responsive and argumentative with a tinge of personal disrespect. Again.
I also find it fascinating that the RTAs are *required* to contract out all of their services.
Source?
Chapter 161B: TRANSPORTATION FACILITIES, HIGHWAY SYSTEMS AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT PLANS
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralL ... /Section25
Section 25. Nothing in this chapter shall be deemed to authorize or permit any authority established by this chapter to directly operate any mass transportation service.
But an RTA can operate a commercial vehicle driving school if it is designed for low-income, unemployed or underemployed...
(r) to apply for and receive a license to engage in the business of giving instruction for hire in the operation of commercial motor vehicles under section 32G of chapter 90 designed to promote participation from low income, underemployed and unemployed persons.
 #1620244  by CRail
 
eolesen wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:02 pmThere's also a lot a lot of institutional knowledge that simply changes companies along with the contract, especially in the lower and middle levels where it matters the most.
Where it matters the most is where funding is allocated and policy is set. Institutional knowledge is negated when new regimes come in with their own ideas and agendas telling those who carry over "the way you've always done it" is wrong and needs reform.
Keolis knows transit systems. Its literally their core business. Rail, metro, bus... they cover it all. But do keep believing they're a paper company.
Do they now? A jack of all trades but a master of none. Their biggest contract in the U.S. was in Las Vegas and they knew their way right out of a job there. Of course... that's not what I was referring to when
I wrote:MBCR and Keolis Commuter Services are paper "railroads" with no rail assets or equipment.
as was pointed out already.